076: Looking At Giving, 2011 & 2012 and Breaking The Mold In Traditional Endowment Design – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Rob Mitchell, CEO of Atlas of Giving

Kathryn Miree, president of Kathryn W. Miree & Associates and Turney Berry, attorney at Wyatt Tarrant & Combs

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://mpgadv.com

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Durney hello and welcome to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on tony martignetti non-profit radio your aptly named host it’s january twenty seventh twenty twelve i hope you were with me last week because what you would have heard and if you weren’t, this is what you missed revel in real estate. Chase magnuson of george washington university and alan thomas from the american college had small and midsize non-profits in mind, as they described howto identify prospects for real estate gif ts also how to cultivate, solicit and negotiate thes gif ts what is the due diligence that’s required to keep your charity safe from a crummy real estate gift? Also board oversight basics jean takagi are regular legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations law firm in san francisco to find oversight and explained how it should be executed to protect your charity and your board members, and that it was the first part of a conversation that will continue in february. This week, looking at giving twenty eleven and twenty twelve with me will be robbed. Mitchell, ceo of atlas, of giving to talk about two thousand eleven’s giving by sector source and maybe even state, and we’ll also look ahead to predictions for this year, then breaking the mold in traditional endowment design from the national conference on philanthropic planning last year, catherine miree, consultant and attorney attorney berry look at alternatives to endowment design that are rooted in lawsuits, latto changes and difficulties implementing donor for pus is that have arisen with the way down. Mints are traditionally set up between the segments, as always, tony’s take to my block this week. You don’t need the fancy stuff for your plant e-giving the most sophisticated gifts are not necessary to have a very successful and appropriate plan giving program for your charity. I thought this was going to be last week’s blawg, but i messed up with some of the pre recordings, so look for that this week and i’ll say more about it on tony’s take two between the guests. We’re live tweeting this show as we do every week use hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us on twitter this show is supported by g grace corporate real estate services i’m very grateful for their support right now we take a break, then i’ll be joined by rob mitchell of atlas of giving. And we’re going to talk about looking at giving last year and this. So stay with me. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Schnoll are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call us ed to one, two, nine, six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom, too. One, two, nine, six, four, three, five zero two. We make people happy. Hyre hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio i’m joined now by rob mitchell, ceo of atlas of giving, which you’ll find it atlas of giving dot com. Rob has twenty nine years working in and around non-profits as a fundraiser and executive and also a consultant, he is, as i said, ceo of atlas, of giving atlas e-giving measures analyzes and forecasts us charitable, giving monthly by sector source and state. I’m very pleased that his work brings him to the show. Robert, you’re welcome. Thanks. Tony is good to be with you. It’s. A pleasure to have you, um, tell us about the atlas of giving methodology to do these look backs and also predictions of charitable giving. I’ll be happy to the atlas of giving started. Actually, when i was a practitioner, i was chief development officer of the american cancer. So society i was named in that position in june of two thousand won our fiscal year started at the society in september one and then september eleventh the world changed for all of us. Our ceo called me that day and asked me what this meant for giving at the american cancer society acid john i couldn’t possibly know, but they can’t be good, and i’m just not sure how bad it’s going to be or how long it’s going to last. A year later, we felt very pleased that we had finished a bubble of flat, and when describing our success to our board, one of the board members said, well, how do you know you did so well? And we had information from a handful of other charitable organizations nationwide charity organizations, i mentioned those in a the boardmember said, well, that’s, just anecdotal information, isn’t there a benchmark that you can compare our results too? Well, the truth is that a benchmark existed, but it was only annual and it only came out six. It only comes out six months after the calendar year ends. You’re referring to giving yusa yes, i am. So that conversation bothered me, and then this boardmember followed up with me later and said, you know, it strikes me that charitable giving is tied to certain factors in the economy, and if you can figure out what those factors are, you might be able to measure charitable giving on a more timely basis so way initially, while i was still at the society. I had my research team there look into this and other things took priority. Bottom line is we didn’t we didn’t have the time or the energy to pursue it very long moved on to other things. I left this when i left the society in two thousand nine. This was one of the things that was troubling me that i really wanted to get a direct answer to i stayed with you thie idea stayed with you for eight years. It did it did. And so, um, my, uh, we started a company called philanthropy max, and one of the first things that my business partner and i decided to do was to pursue this. So we hired a team of twenty five phd level researchers and analyst and we gave them some variables to look at. They added to the list, the list they looked at was over seventy different economic and demographic variables and and forty two years of published annual e-giving data um, so that’s what they had to work with, they came back a few weeks later, and they said, well, this is remarkable. We have identified what factors are involved what? What economic and demographic factors are involved with us charitable giving. And we’ve developed an algorithm and we check our algorithm against forty two years of published data. We have a correlation rate of ninety nine and a half percent. And the good thing, tony, was that those out of those seventy variables that we started with it boiled down to just a handful and those air variables that are reported monthly or quarterly. So we had a way finally to measure charitable giving as it occurs in the united states. But that was aggregate giving, and that was we started giving away the atlas of e-giving in two thousand ten, and it was just the the national number, the aggregate national number. But we did it on a monthly basis. And by the way, we were also able to create a forecast based on those variables and the formula that we developed. But we wanted to go further. We wanted to have information monthly on sectors so arts, education, religion so forth, their eight different sectors and sources, individuals, foundations, corporations and the quest. And then we also really wanted to add to it states so we sent the research team that assignment, and they came back a few weeks later, and we were able to crack the code all with, uh, what we call up, um, correlation percentages well above ninety percent for everything and most cases well above ninety five percent. So a sense. So essentially, what we have is the ability to measure charitable giving as it occurs in the u s by sector source and stayed on a monthly basis and then forecast to up up to a year in advance. All right, we’re going to take a break, and when we come back, we want to talk about some of these variables that are in there, and i don’t know if we can get you to reveal the number fromthe seventy, but we’ll see how far we can go. And then, of course, we do want to talk about what e-giving look like last year and what it’s ah forecast to look like this year. So rob mitchell will join me after the break. He’ll stay with me, and i hope you do too. They couldn’t do anything to get independent thing. You’re listening to the talking alternate network waiting to get in you could are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall. This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Altum hi, this is psychic medium. Betsy cohen, host of the show. The power of intuition. Join me at talking alternative dot com mondays at eleven a. M call in for a free psychic reading learned how to tune into your intuition to feel better and to create your optimum life. I’m here to guide you and to assist you in creating life that you deserve. Listen. Every monday at eleven a, m on talking alternative dot com. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed hi and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. If you have big ideas but an average budget, tune into tony martignetti non-profit radio for ideas you can use. I do. I’m dr robert panna, author of the non-profit outcomes toolbox. Duitz welcome back. We are looking at giving two thousand eleven in two thousand twelve with rob mitchell, the ceo of atlas, of giving rob, what are some of the factors that were identified from these this big group of seventy before i get into specifics? One thing i will tell you, tony, is that the economic and demographic factors that affect one part of giving aren’t not the same ones that affect other parts of e-giving ok, things like gifts from individuals, uh, have a have a different set of factors than then gifts from corporations. The formula for the education sector is very different from the formula for the art sector. So the sum of the eiken without giving away any secrets. Sausage, everybody. I think everybody for years has understood that there is a relation. There has been a relationship between gross domestic product in the us and charitable giving their other factors that that are involved in different things, and they involve everything from stock prices, toe home prices to earnings to consumer confidence. There there there are a lot of different there are many different factors, but interestingly free sector for each source for each state. The number of factors affecting those various things are actually a pretty small. They’re different from sector to sector source to sort the source, the source and state to state. But each one of those the formula, the factors involved in each of those individual formulas is a pretty small number. And so now are your algorithms, um, patented is that is that appropriate to patent something like this way thought so and way. Obviously, when we crack the code, we rushed right down to a patent lawyer. And the long and the short of it was, he said, your coca cola and we said, what does that exactly mean? And he said, well, if you if you publish, if you if you patent something, it has to be published and even in the application process there’s some things which are revealed. And he said that would give it away. So coca cola, believe it or not, has never patented their formula for coca cola over the years. So, uh, on legal advice, we were advised that in this case, for this particular type type of formula, it would not be wise for us to patent it. And you had an honest attorney who said you don’t need my help, pretty much ok, i love that alright, so that’s let’s dive into some of these numbers overall? What? What are the conclusions from two thousand eleven? And then we’ll look, you know, we look at some specifics, but generally, well, i think the biggest story for two thousand eleven is that we experienced a real resurgence in giving in two thousand eleven, and the resurgence wass far outpaced the growth in the economy. This is one of those years where the folks who have tried to make strong correlations between gdpr charitable giving are going to be a little off quit because e-giving grew and two thousand eleven, two, three hundred forty’s over three hundred forty six billion dollars that’s a seven and a half percent increase over the two thousand ten number. Now, when you consider the fact that and the final numbers, they’re not in on gdpr for for two thousand eleven, but when they do come in, they’re going to be some where it’ll be probably in a range of between one and a half and one point eight percent growth in gdp, so you can see the charitable giving really did well, and there were some there was some important reasons for that. Okay, well, um let’s hold off on some of the reasons, i think because i want to get into some more of the conclusions and but before we do that, even what i think is kind of exciting is we don’t have to wait six months from the end of the year for for the giving us a report to come out. No, the in fact, the report is posted on our alice e-giving website right now. So, um, we have we have we offer three products. The first one is called out with standard and it is available for free with a subscription. And then we have atlas, professional and that’s everything monthly by sector sources state. Then we have we have something called atlas custom. Our technology enables us to build custom benchmarking and predictive models for individual non-profits to identify what particular economic and demographic factors effect they’re giving. But because your methodology is so much different than e-giving yusa, which is based on surveys, we have something much quicker than then. June, i guess, is when that typically comes. Out yes and way think are we think our technology has other advantages as well? There are other than giving us say, there are other indexes and surveys and blackbaud has won, yeah, and most of those air based on, um, a group of customers that sort of fit a profile, and they’re not necessarily representative of all sectors for of very small charities or very large charities. Um, the survey kind of methodology is important, and i don’t i don’t want to diminish the fact that surveys air important, but there are things related to my background which i know happen in the survey process, which can be troubling over time. And when i was at the american cancer society, just as an example, as a matter of board policy, we we did not disclose our e-giving information on a contemporary basis. Of course, we filed the nine nineties and those sorts of things did annual reports, but in terms for competitive reasons are bored felt like it was it was important for us not to participate in those kinds of survey let’s. Look let’s, look at the prediction for two thousand twelve you’re predicting ah, just under four. Percent growth yes, the current forecast is two thousand twelve will finish the year with with about three hundred and sixty billion dollars in total e-giving and that would be a three point nine percent increase over two thousand eleven. But like any forecast, and we update our forecasts each month, right? So as these as the as the factors or the are reported each month, because you’re basing them on government supply data, then you you change your your forecast for each month. Well, and there are other things that happened as well, okay, look like thousand won is a great example. Two thousand one was was a very good giving year for most organizations until september eleven things changed dramatically after that. So you’re able to factor in world events like that, i guess world events, whether yeah, and whether they’re man made or natural disasters, tax policy changes, changes in government, all kinds of things, um, those things are all taken to account, so in terms of the forecast we updated each month, and so if we get it just as an example, if we get a severe weather event of some of some kind, that the severe natural disaster. Say an earthquake in someplace. Hey, that’s going to be good? It could be overall, actually good for the charitable giving economy, depending on what kind of event it is. Because people there’s an outpouring, obviously. And things like the indonesian tsunami and the haitian earthquake. Sure, there was a huge outpouring. But the thing to remember is that the charitable giving economy is complex, and so, um and and it’s somewhat defined so that disaster relief organizations benefit uh, a great deal during times of the those kinds of disasters. But that money has to come from somewhere. And usually it comes from other places and there’s some additive. But it usually comes from other organisms. Other non disaster organizations. Let’s, look at some of the sectors for two thousand eleven. So the arts sector how how did that fair last year? The the, uh, art sector, if you bear with me for just a moment. Sure got eight, eight sectors here to look over. The art sector was up for the year. Six point eight percent and the forecast for next year is for it to finish up five point two percent, which is better. Than the than the forecast for the aggregate national e-giving and but then their results this year weren’t quite as good as the aggregate national number. Yes. Okay. And what about you have ah, sector called society benefit? What is that? The society benefit is his organization’s, um, usually passed through organizations like united way? Uh, those those kinds of organizations would be included in society benefit jewish federations, those sorts of things. Okay, just a reminder for our listeners. I’m with rob mitchell, ceo of atlas, of giving. We’re talking about looking at giving two thousand eleven and two thousand twelve. How did those society benefit organizations do? In last year, they were almost at the national average, up seven point three percent and they’re projected to be almost at the national average next year. Five point zero percent okay, so pretty steady, but then religion i see has been, uh, losing market share. Religion has been losing market share and that’s been a trend that is that has continued for a number of years. Religion did not finish as strong as the nation did in two thousand eleven. Oppcoll let me get to that number really quickly, so recision was up, but not as much as the overall that’s correct, it was up six point five percent, but here’s the interesting thing for the forecast. For next year, it’s only forecast to grow less than half half of the national growth rate for giving so it’s projected to be up one point six percent and thousand twelve what’s the current market share current market shortages um, thirty five percent and how many years has it been since that’s? What you said several, but do we know when that when the decline in market share began? I don’t have that at my fingertips, like certainly get you that information? Because i don’t have that at my fingertips, do we? Don’t you know that there was a declining market share this year? Okay? And it dropped one percent from thirty six percent down to thirty five percent this past year. All right. And what do you expect for next year? Are you able to forecast that market share? Yes, we are able to forecast the market share. And so now i was i was misstated. Religion went religion was at thirty seven percent in two thousand ten. It was a thirty six percent in two thousand eleven, and it looks like if things go according to the forecast that it could be as low as thirty five percent next year. Okay, do we know where that where those dollars air going and again, it’s not a zero sum game, but do you have a sense of that, or not? Really? Well, you know, we we look at lots of different news and information about a lot of different things, and one of the things that’s no secret is that mainline churches in the u s have been losing membership, and it continues to be a problem for them, so that certainly is a contributing factor. The one thing that has not helped religion this past year and this is true of a lot of organizations that rely on lots of small gifts from lots of small donors, is that unemployment as a factor, has been particularly significant because when people fear being unemployed or they are unemployed, they discontinue their giving and often don’t resume their giving until they’ve had a chance to catch up after being re employed of course, like ours and furniture and clothes and taking vacations. That have been put off paying off debt, etcetera? Yes, so that that lags actually from the so the giving of a lag from a change from a decrease in the unemployment rate. Yes. Okay. Okay. Let’s, look a little at some of the sources, and i know you’re able tto look at individual foundation corporate m bequest. What happened to individual giving last year? Individual e-giving i was actually really, really good this past year. Individual e-giving was up. Um a little hang on one second. Let me get to that information. Individual giving was up seven point eight percent, slightly better than the national average. And the individual e-giving forecast for next year is pretty close to what we forecast for the aggregate it’s three point seven percent. Okay. And what was the just the overall dollar amount of individual giving for last year? Two hundred sixty point one. Eight billion. And that represents what percentage of total giving? Seventy five percent has that seventy five percent been pretty steady. It has been very study. It is. Okay. Um, let’s, look at some others. So foundation giving what? What happened that last year? And what’s forecast foundation giving. Wasn’t quite as good as the national seven point five percent. It was up six point, two percent in two thousand eleven, but next year it’s forecast to be currently forecast to be better the national giving it’s it is forecast to go up six point three percent. So steady growth in foundation e-giving from two thousand eleven to two thousand twelve way have just a couple of minutes left. Rob this number’s a really interesting is only so much time we can spend on them. What about the bequest numbers? Tony? I had a feeling you were gonna ask me, i’ll as planned giving is in my heart, of course, save the best for last bequest giving was exactly up as the same amount as the national e-giving average, it was up seven point five percent. It isn’t, uh it isn’t keeping pace. In two thousand twelve, according to our forecast, it’s going to be up three point, zero percent, and, of course, these air realized request. This is not expected, of course, and what percentage of total giving is a bequest? Revenue bequest revenue is, uh seven percent. Okay. And that’s been steady. Is that right? Okay. Last thing i’m gonna ask you is just something maybe a little fun because that we just have, like thirty seconds or so left. Since you can do this by state what’s the one of the most and least generous states in the country. Well, the most generous states in two thousand eleven for pennsylvania, illinois and florida according to their growth rates, pennsylvania had experienced upward are experienced growth of eleven point eight percent. Illinois eleven point four percent florida ten point five percent ok, and how about the other end? Um, there are a whole group of states which were there. Isn’t there isn’t a clear leader at the bottom, if you will. Okay, all right, so we weigh don’t have time to really to go through the list. We don’t want to embarrass anybody, any state randomly, so we’ll just leave it at that and we do have to leave it there for a mitchell is ceo of atlas of giving, you’ll find it atlas of giving dot com we were spending time talking about looking at giving two thousand eleven and two thousand twelve rob thank you very much for being a guest. Tony it’s. Been great to be with you. Thank you, real pleasure in very interesting numbers. Thank you. Right now, we’re going to take a break, and when we return, it’ll be tony’s take to stay with me. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed hi and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back, it’s, time for tony’s take two at roughly thirty two minutes into the hour my block this week, which i thought was going to be my block last week, but it’s, not the block last week. It’s the block this week, so look for it this week. You don’t need the fancy stuff for your plan e-giving for small and midsize charities really having just a bequest marketing program and stopping there can be a very respectable planned e-giving program. First of all, bequests are where any program starts or irrespective of what your mission is or how big you are. You’re always going to start with requests because they’re the most popular planned gift expect about seventy five percent of your plan gifts to be bequests, and they’re easy for people to understand. Everybody knows what a will is, everybody needs a will. I may not have it, but everybody needs one and they know what one is so it’s an easy type of giving toe understand through a state plans and, um, for a lot of charities, that’s the place to end because you don’t need to spend money on expertise tohave people including you in their will so you could be going into real estate or the sophisticated trust or even charitable gift annuities, but you don’t have to don’t let a fear of the more sophisticated gift and the expertise required for some of them keep you away from inaugurating a plan giving program, start with requests and stopped there and it’s a very respectable and solid plan giving program, and that is tony’s take two for friday, january twenty seventh, the fourth show of two thousand twelve. Now i have breaking the mold in traditional endowment design to pre recorded at the national conference on philanthropic planning last year and here’s that interview welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the national conference on philanthropic planning. We are on the river walk in san antonio, texas. My guests right now are catherine miree attorney berry catherine is principal of katherine w miree and associates in birmingham, alabama, and attorney berry is a partner in law firm of wyatt, tarrant and combs in louisville, kentucky. Catherine durney welcome, thanks so much pleasure to have you. Your seminar topic is breaking the mold options in traditional endowment design. Catherine wanted to start with you. What the, uh what do we need to break the mold? What’s wrong with traditional design? Tony, i think if you look at the issues and lawsuits right now, where donors are suing charities, what it really reveals is that perpetual is a long time and it’s not entirely practical, to be very prescriptive in creating a long term funds to really look at the issues and talk about some of the solutions to the problems we see out there right now. Okay, durney, let’s, turn to the attorney. What are just some of the legal issues that we’re seeing in these lawsuits that katherine’s talking about right? Well, you you need to look at it from three different points of view. From the donor’s point of view. A planner and a charity are promising that they will do to certain things. And the donor believes him on the donor’s family believes them. And so the question is, can we really design an endowment that will work the way the donor wants over a very long period of time? Then you got issues from the charity’s pointed to it. Does it? Does a charity really want in particular endowment, particularly? If it’s if it’s very, very specific, it may be one thing if what you’re doing is saying we want teo, i had to pay for historical research. But if we say this is for research into the causes of world war i in one hundred years, that may not be something that the university say needs money for and the last, the last aspect that will be talking about is awareness of the effects on society. Is it good for us to have enormous accumulations and endowments? On the other hand, let’s suppose that we cut back on those for any of a variety of reasons. Is that good for society? They’re just complicated issues. And we like tio start people thinking about you and catherine a cz we’re getting into the topic. Let’s, let’s, define endowment. What were we talking about when we’re in these funds? What we mean that’s a great question to may endowment is any poo of fund set aside for the long term use of a charity or for charitable purposes? And so, in that respect, it could be what we all consider a traditional endowment at a university or hospital or any charity. Where the donor makes a gift to the charity and says, don’t spend the principal use only their earnings, or it could be a vehicle like a private foundation, which we see among a lot of the wealthy and a private foundation is perpetual and purpose, and it is, in truth, a pool of funds you’re required by law to distribute five percent of you’re investable assets that you but that’s an endowment, a supporting or could be an endowment, a donor advised funds could be an endowment, a charitable lied trust could be an endowment substitute. So these air all funds where the principle is invested in the earnings are used for charitable purposes, okay? But as attorney pointed out, the donor’s may have specific things that they want to fund, so if we’re going to be donor-centric shouldn’t we just allow them to do what they really want to do with their money and their gift? I love talking about donor-centric what that maims it doesn’t mean letting the donor run amok with a charitable purpose that would take a charity off mission, for example, attorney has a great example of that that makes me smile. Go ahead. Not my favorite one is let’s suppose that i wanted to go to my my church on tao, the singing of amazing grace. You can’t use the money to seeing how great thou art, but you can use it to sing amazing grace and some of the pastor says we’re going to do with that gift. We can have special robes for the singing of amazing grace. We could have a special rise or for the choir to sit to stand on, but all i’m really doing is disrupting the operation of the church and charity should be very sensitive to that, and i don’t, and somebody should come to me and say, well, it’s, wonderful that you like amazing grace and we can call the fund the amazing grace find, but but we just can’t administer a fun like that on a reasonable donors is going to go ahead and change that if you get some thoughtful back and forth and emphasizes his, catherine said the importance donor-centric donors want to help the mission of the endowment charity they’re they’re they’re working with, so you need to meld those, too. And catherine, if you’re attorney said, if the donor is reasonable and really wants to help the charity. Aren’t they going to be receptive to the explanation that that kind of purpose for an endowment just doesn’t suit us? Two of the things to the trends that i see that i think bear on this issue are one term endowments and to creating flexibility within the endowment and a method for or mechanism for change, i’ll give you a good example. I had a donor walk in and wanted to create a million dollar endowment for a program called success by six and the conversation i had with that does age six, i assume not six o’clock in the afternoon, right? Right, trying to do it in a day, six years success by six is an early childhood intervention education intervention program that catches kids when they’re three or four and prepares him tto learn and it’s a critical time in their lives and a lot of poor families. I don’t have that kind of support for children, and my question to the donor was, what are you really trying to accomplish? And when they said, i love these programs that go in and prepare young children, my response was let’s say that let’s don’t name a program that might not be here in a few years. Let’s talk about outcomes, let’s talk about what you want to do, so donors air prescriptive because they haven’t really thought of any other options, and i think our job is planners is to back him up a little bit and talk more about outcomes and purposes in terms, so we have options. We have the reflect, the limited term endowment and what was the other that you mentioned flexibility put in a plan b, a plan c in the event that the first purpose is no longer impactful? Effective makes okay now attorney in your work are you seeing donors who are receptive to these breaking the mold of what we’ve been doing for decades? Sure, let let let’s take, for example, and arts group the louisville orchestra if you have a donor who wants to benefit the louisville orchestra and wants to create a very long term endowment, it’s pretty easy to persuade the donor that a fund should be for the benefit or castro music in louisville, kentucky, an example of which is the level orchestra and that’s what? Should be funded first, but if one hundred years from now there’s some other something, then the larger purpose is funding live classical music and louisville today, we can’t really conceive of that it any other way than an orchestra that may be true in one hundred years, but but who knows? Education is another really good, and you have the issue of bankruptcy. Our orchestra and birmingham went bankrupt and took down with it a number of funds that donor said contributed so in attorneys example, what do you do? Have you protected the funds in one of our jobs? Is planners if we’re representing the donor, is to protect those funds for the use that they intended. So what do you do in that situation? And i hear that a lot from potential donors. What happens if the college or the orchestra doesn’t exist any longer? How do we protect the donor? Well, they’re they’re number of ways you could do that, one of which is you can put the assets the endowment in a separate organization in a philanthropic fund, a private foundation, a community foundation, a supporting or where it is not the charity’s directly, so that’s one way to do it another way is to have a gift over it’s a little extreme. What does that mean? Gift over way have jargon jail here on tony martignetti not probably don’t my antenna are always up when i’m with an attorney, right? Right? No way. What did you say left over as long as as long as that particular organization is doing x, then the endowment will be theirs. But if not, it will go over to a second organization. So the second organization has an incentive to police what the first organization is doing so let’s say let’s say that what i do is i create endowment for ah, for a hospital that’s supposed to be used to support it’s it’s women’s programs and for whatever reason, the hospital stopped doing that it goes in and becomes a long term care facility. If i have a gift over to another hospital, the other hospital is going to raise the red flag and say, oh, first hospital isn’t doing this anymore where’s our money? Well, that’s, a very that’s, a very good way to do it, and you’re finding non-profits are willing to accept that oversight. By another local non-profit i mean, but but because again they don’t they don’t think they’re ever going to get out of that business, and so it helps them do whatever it is they want to do. The harder ones, quite honestly, are something like a library where you have donors who really want to fund collections, and you have to have the very difficult conversation, particularly with elderly people, that collections may not be books, and they really don’t know when they say not books, they think, oh, it’s, going to be some endless room of computers and dvds and and a bunch of kids playing and this is not what we want to do, and you have to say, well, it’s, not entirely true, if, if in in, you know, the year one hundred somebody had endowed the creation of a pirate’s manuscript, you you would have wanted them to fund gutenberg, and they all kinda well, yeah, that’s, that’s, true, but but those air harder organizations, catherine let’s, take a step back and think about some smaller organizations that that really just wanted. Maybe they’re at the stage where they say we need to have an endowment. We want to start an endowment. What should they be thinking of our around the issues that you attorney are concerned about? I think the first place to start is the role of endowment, both internally. I always looking to cases for endowment. One is thie internal case. Why do we need an endowment, how we’re going to use it. So everybody over the board is saying, we need one, you want to, you want to question, why, okay? And why do you need one? And what is its role going? Tobe a and i don’t think people talk about that enough. And then that second case is washing donors. Invest in the endowment, talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Hi, i’m carol ward from the body mind wellness program listen to my show for ideas and information to help you live a healthier life in body, mind and spirit, you’ll hear from terrific guests who are experts in the areas of health, wellness and creativity. So join me every thursday at eleven a m eastern standard time on talking alternative dot com professionals serving community oppcoll oh, this is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays, one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership, customer service sales or maybe better? Writing are speaking skills. Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications, that’s the answer. Told you. Durney what attorney, in terms of structuring endowment, from a legal perspective, what does the charity beginning that process need to be thinking of? Well, you you need to decide, is it going to be an internal endowment or an external in down there? You’re going to keep it on your books or are you going to create an organization or creative fund at a community ways you mentioned earlier, communiqu, conditional donorsearch vie, having donors use their own donor advised funds that said, ok, so what do you want in house or do you or do you not? And then what sort of what sort of restrictions are you going to impose? What sort of gifts are you going to solicit? One of the things that that i fine at least, is that often time, endowments and plan giving generally very unfortunately serves a work avoidance function, it is we’ve got somebody on staff or the board says, oh, we’ve got a lot of older donors we need to raise endowment dollars from them, but nobody really wants to go ask anybody for endowment money, so they say we’ll order some brochures and we’ll mail the brochures out and we’ll have a plan and we’ll have a committee, and at the end of the day, they’re shocked to discover that nobody gives any money and so they then divert the person to doing special events, and three or four years later, somebody on the board says, we need to get serious about endowment, and we start the process all over again, you know? Oh, and and and you see it when you look at resumes, most of the resumes among the smaller charities in certainly in our area there the plan giving officers have us much special event experience as they do playing e-giving experience the ones where you have success are the people who are committed, and they say, it’s future, we’re going after the future all of fund-raising at the end of the day, it’s just telling your story. And if you have people in the organization who aren’t comfortable telling the story, i e fund-raising that’s a problem kapin you’re shaking your head, as tony was saying, future anything you want to say they’re no, i agree, i agree with him. Absolutely. I generally look at annual operating annual fund-raising supporting operations plan giving and deferred giving supporting endowment because it’s a one time gift, it perpetuates the donor’s ongoing gift. We know that those gifts come from the most committed donors, so i don’t disagree with you. You know, i thought maybe you were shaking your head in chagrin over over organizations that might be doing what i do. I see it all the time. So how should we structure internally in terms of fund-raising to avoid the the problems that attorney is describing when we’re starting an endowment, campaign or program? You know, i think an endowment campaign on its own is the hardest thing any charity will ever do. I look at it as part of the bigger picture, part of the bigger case. Two donors that they need to invest now and in the future, i see. I really think having people the son to play e-giving and having the disciplined allocate those gifts to endowment as quasi endowment, which is bored. Allocated as opposed to donor ellicott. Ok, let’s, talk a little about that quasi endowment. That was okay, too. Real types of endemic one is true endowment. That is where the donor places to restrictions on those funds that you cannot spend the principal. You may only use the earnings. The other is quasi endowment, and quasi is bored. Allocated endowment. That means the gift comes in without the restrictions. But the board itself places an endowment because it has the discipline to do that. And that is the easiest way. Oh, so that’s that’s an unrestricted gift that might just be a thousand dollar annual gift. It’s and the board makes a difficult decision. Yes, to not spend it right and put it into its true endowment. Right. And, you know the other argument i usually give, charity says if you budget a state gifts, you are basically budgeting death and that it’s a little tricky in terms of the unrestricted gifts being allocated to endowment by the board. Is there ah, policy or a guideline that you like to see a certain percentage of unrestricted gifts being devoted to endowment? I look at it. Mohr is all the testamentary gifts. The things that are triggered by the death of the donor. If the charity will put one hundred percent of those an endowment, it will basically in tao in many cases, the donor’s annual gift i wanted to. See have all that discipline and then if they need, if you have policies it’s, goingto be howto we withdraw some of those funds, but how do we use them that’s so hard to do, though in especially in the midst of a recess? Shin still, but attorney, i see you nodding. You agree it is, but you could never make any progress. It seems to me if you’re if you are always having to find new donors, you want to be able to tell the story two new people every year, but you want to continue to capture the story of our capture, the people you’ve already told story too. So if you’ve got a donor who gives you a thousand dollars a year, if you could get ten thousand dollars as a request or is a longer term gift of some sort, then this is good because they’ve basically funded their gift and now i can go after the next person aunt, i can actually expand and grow and develop in a way that it’s very difficult to do if you every year are starting from scratch. Of course, catherine, as our consultant, we know that the cost of acquiring a new donor is considerably greater than e-giving follow-up gift from an existing it isthe and i look at it it’s maximizing the donor’s role with the charity. If they are giving to you every year, you need to make that ask that they give in perpetuity and many of them will you’re not going to find people walking around on the streets that there going to make it down my gifts that haven’t that don’t have any other connection to your charity know you’re looking for that commitment in terms of and doesn’t that commitment. Evenflo teo two donors who were giving it small levels, right? Let’s, talk a little about that. Catherine. I see direct mail organizations whose average gifts eyes on an annual basis is very low. They don’t have those hi n major gifts, and yet there is committed and they might leave an average of st gift of thirty or forty thousand. It may not be as large as the major gift donors, but it’s significant, no charity would turn that what? So look to your small giving your donors were making small gifts, but doing it consistently maybe that zach decade arm or decades? Sometimes we see in longstanding organism right best the number one indicator, and what i have learned is that many of those donors make their only major gift at death because they can’t afford to do it doing like we have to leave it there been with katherine miree principle of katherine w miree and associates in birmingham, alabama, and turny bury a partner in a law firm, wyatt, tarrant and combs in louisville, kentucky. Catherine, attorney welcome. Thank you very much for being here. Thanks. Enjoyed the topic was breaking the mold options in traditional endowment designing your listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the national conference on films about the planning two thousand eleven. That was my interview with katherine miree internee berry from the national conference on philanthropic planning on breaking the mold in traditional endowment design. I want to thank everybody this week, my thanks to rob mitchell for being a guest on dh catherine miree and turny berry for taking time. Teo, sit with me at the national conference on philanthropic planning and also thanks to the organizers of that conference. It was a pleasure to be a media sponsor there. Next week, tapping entrepreneurs for your cause with jerry stengel principle of stengel solutions were going to talk about the value that entrepreneurs khun give you and how to approach them. 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