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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host. Isn’t it comforting to hear all that you know, you’re in the right place. It’s friday, june twenty eighth twenty thirteen so pleased to be back in the studio even though it was your last week, too. I just love being here so muchmore than pre recording oh, i hope you’re with me. Last week it was get out and positively communicate. Sharon abbott is the author of mixing it up the entrepreneurs new testament we talked about networking your non-profit recruiting and hiring motivated people and positive communications. Sharon read my face to tell what kind of communicator i am and sec secrets. Maria simple is the author of panning for gold. Finding your best donorsearch prospects now and our monthly prospect research contributor she struck research gold in sec corporate filings. I hope you’re with me last week, i’d endure a cubine it’s ulcer if i heard that you had missed last week’s show this week intuitive brainstorming karen garvey, author speaker, intuitive and coach describes the why and how of intuitive brainstorming it’s not your mother’s brain storming and the ppa latto paul part do have you seen dan pallotti’s? Viral video from ted it’s called the way we think about charity is dead wrong. Our legal contributor jean takagi. Principle of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group continues our discussion from may tenth on how we got here and what would need to change. And should it change to achieve dan, pull out his vision of a more free market charity sector. Also the overhead myth letter between the guests on tony’s take two. It is my block this week, which is are you having fun? I’m talking about mermaid parade type fund. My pleasure. Now to welcome karen garvey. On september eleventh, two thousand one, she received simultaneous information about what was happening. That was her first experience. Learning something not through earthly means. Over time, she discovered how to intentionally tune into this connection through this conduit to universal knowledge, she provides insights for coaching seminars, media and books. You’ll find karen at the answer’s unlimited dot com. Karen garvey, welcome. Well, thank you for having me, tony it’s. A pleasure. Thanks for joining me in the studio. Um, september eleventh. What? What was happening for you then? I have an mba, and i was working as an independent business consultant at that time. So i was working out of my home and what i would typically do wood was go out for iran a few mornings a week before i began the day. And when i returned from my run about five to nine that morning i was standing in my driveway, punching the key code in to get the garage door to go up. And as i was standing there, i received information about what was happening, a visual, a sense of it, almost like a download of knowledge about what was happening. And since i live about an hour from manhattan, it was impossible for me to have any physical clues about what was going on. I put it out of my mind. I thought it was just a awful thing to have appear in my brain, if you will. But within under a minute, i had the phone ringing, somebody telling me to put the television on. When i put the tv on, it was at the moment where the broadcasters were making suppositions about what had happened to the first tower, and they were saying that a small plane and gotten off its course. But i was able to immediately connect that what i had experienced in the driveway was that i understood and comprehended what was going on even without my knowledge or being there. So i guess the big moment for me was that, you know, coming from a more intellectual background and only really caring about things that were academic and scientifically proven. It was my first experience knowing that our conscious energy is not connected to our body. While you were punching in the key code, you knew that this was happening in new york city. Yes. And you knew that it was more than just a small plane off course over jimmy. Yes. I knew it was the beginning. I knew it was intended. I knew it was planned. You know, i knew that it was oven attack nature s so yes, i got that information with sort of like a visual as well. Do you know where edward snowden is going to go for asylum? And you tell us what country he’s headed to? Wow, if i could do that. I probably wouldn’t be sitting on the air with you telling me you wouldn’t think that this is a place to reveal this is no, nobody listens to this show. Only nine thousand. But this is the place to reveal where but okay, but what do you mean you’re your bio says universal knowledge. What does that mean? What? What have come, teo, understand? And, you know, after nine eleven, it took me a while to find any language for what had happened. And then it took a lot more occurrences of receiving simultaneous information of things that were happening before i could comprehend the experience. S o i’m pretty much self taught learning how to remove my conscious thoughts from what i’ve learned from my learned experiences. You call it getting out of your body or getting out of your way whatever you wanna call it. But i learned that i can connect with non physical sources for information, and any information i get from that source is far more comforting. Liberating. It resonates with me more far more than the things that i have learned on earth from people s o what i find is it’s, is it? Some kind of a miracle or gift? I don’t really think so. I think we’re all very intuitive. It was just a confluence of events that day, you know, the magnificence of the amount of conscious energy that was being shared that day, plus the fact that i had just been for iran, so my mind was quiet and also my family and i had some personal connections to that date, so it was also intimate, so and i don’t know if that confluence hadn’t happened if i would’ve opened up on that day, but all it did was help me to find this extension of life that taps into universal knowledge, and i think that we all do it in one way or another. We just might not have a description for it or know howto how to capture that knowledge. Yeah, i mean, i certainly feel intuitions strongly, i think when i’m leaving my apartment that maybe that i’ve forgotten something. Yes, and sometimes unwisely, i dismissed him ends, and i don’t even think, oh, no, i’m not i’m not forgetting anything. I just dismissed them, and then i get on the subway. I realized i forgot to bring my my apple elected an apple each time on the subway and got my subway apple or, you know, i did forget my workout clothes or something, but there then there are times when i will pay attention to it, and i’ll stop and i’ll think, what am i missing? Yes and something. Ah lot of times not not every time, though, but a lot of times something does occur to me, and i could go back and get it before i leave my apartment. I mean, that’s, that’s, intuition. But but how do we how do we connect to that? The sort of on demand, which is what you’re what you’re describing, i mean, and you’re working coaching and workshops, you know that i can’t i’m not saying i can conjure it up. Yes, yeah, and maybe conscious, not ivory. I don’t mean that in the demeaning i understand. Exactly understand? Well, you know the what it is, it’s kind of like finding the place that your brain goes, if you will it’s almost as though i could feel shift in my brain when i’m open to that conduit. So it’s practice, practice practice i like to think about it, like, did you ever see those images? Those aren’t images that it looks like just a bunch of small dots or pixels. And when you step back and you look at it and use you, bend your eyes, it turns into a three day when you’re seeking it and seeking it and seeking it it’s flat and two day. But the day you see the three day you can practice to keep finding it and it becomes easier it’s the same way with this connection. When i practiced, i can see the three day without effort anymore because it’s so practiced, i practiced the muscle in there for me now nufer let’s translate this to something that small and midsize non-profits i think, can benefit trump. Why? I invited you to talk about intuitive brainstorming. What? What is this? Generally? Okay, what it is it’s it’s. First of all, it’s about suspending doubt that we are creatures that are finite and that we’re separate. First, you have to understand that we are connected and that there is this universe with infinite wisdom that’s trying to guide us in the direction of our focus. So what we do when i go into organizations as we begin by setting a goal, and that goal will be to overcome whatever challenge or limit the organization is experiencing. The moment whether it’s, you know, staffing issues or trying to find new creative ways to raise revenue or a new marketing idea. But whatever it is, we set a goal, and we have what it would be typical brainstorming rules. Ah, that we apply for the process. And those rules include that we’ll get to those. Okay. More, general. Yeah. Yeah, no problem. And so we just set the course of working toward our goal. In a way where there’s no interruption. We have an hour to think about it, and we start to put our energy and our focus toward that direction. And however many people department heads, or if it’s a very small organization, everyone whoever’s in that room is somehow connected to the end goal and feels as though it’s possible to get to that end goal. Can we apply this where we have maybe difficult relationship with some some fellow employees? Or maybe, ah, relationship with board members or other volunteers? Can it work with personal relationships? Also it definitely can and that’s. One of the wonderful things about it. Is that just the process of knowing that there’s no judgment or criticism or bad ideas during that one hour, it allows people to open up the possibility that they might not have thought of otherwise. It gets, you know, it gets the thinking part of you out of the way. So the more creative ideas, things that come more from intuition and from love and from heart and soul, can come forth, and those usually are the better solutions. In the end, we’re gonna take a break, and when we come back, we’ll start. I just want to probe a little more the way the universe is guiding us, but then we’ll get into some details about intuitive brainstorming. So after the break, karen garvey, of course, stays with me, and i hope that you do, too. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Do you need a business plan that can guide your company’s growth? Seven and seven will help bring the changes you need. Wear small business consultants and we pay attention to the details. You may miss our coaching and consultant services are guaranteed to lead toe right growth for your business, call us at nine. One seven eight three, three, four, eight, six. Zero foreign, no obligation. Free consultation. Check out our website of ww dot covenant seven dot com. Are you fed up with talking points? Rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology no reality. In fact, its ideology over in tow. No more it’s time for action. Join me, larry. Shock a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the isaac tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what’s important to you society, politics, business and family. It’s provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to know what’s. Really going on? What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me, larry sharp. Your neo-sage. Tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com. For details. That’s, ivory tower radio dot com everytime was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education. Listening. Tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Time to send some live listener love let’s start abroad today. Beijing chung ching and shanghai, china welcome live listener love ni hao seoul, south korea always lovely always always glad to see south korea checking in on your haserot and in japan, tokyo is only one person in tokyo or multiple. Sometimes there are multiple multiple people in tokyo. We don’t know exactly where you are, but do you know each other? I’m are you all in a coffee shop together for for our listeners in japan. Konnichi wa ann arbor, michigan. Newport, north carolina. Malvin p a thank you for checking in live listener love to each of you and there’s more coming talking with karen garvey, author speaker, intuitive coach we’re talking about intuitive brain storming let’s say a little more wood. Well, actually not not. Let us let you can. I don’t understand it about how the universe is is guiding us. I the way i see things now is that we we either live awake or asleep when we’re asleep. We really think that this is a solo flight. Maybe you can have. Tea members or friends or people that support you, but you think pretty much that this is your journey, your legs, your brain, and you got to do it on your own. But as soon as you start to awaken, as soon as you start to understand that there’s, this infinite power that we are connected to that is eternal that’s with us before we’re born and will be with us during this journey and also be with us after we you know, after we pass on, then you start to be able to find ways that you witness this interaction, what i usually do with clients, even an intuitive brainstorming as i start to ask them to become aware of it if you’re not aware of it by asking a question of the universe every day and expect that you’ll get an answer, because this will train you to start to witness the signs in the way that the universe is connecting with you or communicating with you. So, you know, in the beginning, keep it light hearted and playful because you don’t want to have your first question be life or death. It’s, it’s a little bit harder. To discover the answer that way, if you’re very very invested in the outcome, or if you haven’t expected desire of how it will turn out. But if you start with something playful, you’ll start to see that the answer can pop up in an e mail or by someone’s conversation online. Behind you in the store, it can come through maybe not new york city so much, but where i live, it comes on vanity plates on license plates. Quite often, it can come on a sign on a building or a passage in a book, but you allow yourself to be able to accept the answer so that you’re you’re strengthening your ability to understand how we are connected and how we are guided, you know, and often times you’ll see two or three responses to the same question. So it’s about practicing it’s about seeing something differently. Also another way to strengthen this is to take stock of how you are intuitive and there’s a lot of ways, we are intuitive that many people aren’t taking taking ownership of like what you were saying earlier about that gut feeling, i left something in the apartment, but there are other things, too, like thinking about somebody that you haven’t seen in a while, and then they contact you. Ah, another thing would be just to have a sense of turning in a different direction and finding that when you made that turn opposite of what your logic would say, that there was a good reason to do it or not taking that turn and finding out that you should have listened to that feeling. Another thing is, we we oftentimes can get messages or visits from past loved ones in our dreams, and they feel very different than dreams. They don’t feel like they’re imaginative play. It feels like you’re visiting with this soul and that’s, another avenue toward understanding intuition. I have, ah, very dear friend who says there are no coincidences. Do you agree with that? I just phrase it differently. I just say that a coincidence is a purposeful intersecting of events. So, yes, there are coincidences and they have purpose, but you define them as having purpose, yes. Interesting. So, yeah, i mean, i i had something like that just this past week. I was thinking about someone contacting them, and then i got an email from them that’s it, uh but you okay? So you’re suggesting starting with a question a day now, i was thinking something like, you know, where should i have lunch today? But you don’t want to. You don’t want to be that trivial in the beginning. It’s kind of nice to make it that trivial because it’s easier to find the signs when you’re not that emotionally encumbered by the answer so you can find things that are just lighthearted. So if you’re thinking, you know, if you’re thinking of going to the smoothie place versus going to the chinese place, it’s not that difficult to find a sign, you know, you might walk out of here and trip over a pineapple, and that might indicate you should go to the smoothie place. Well, but chinese, they have sweet’n sour point way. You’re gonna wait for your second land. Okay? Right now. All right. So starting with something simple like that is okay. It’s actually easier. Much easier. Preferred. Okay, so, let’s. Go back to the intuitive brainstorming. You will lose to some of the rules. And i didn’t want to get too specific at that point. But what what are, uh, what does? Well, the second step back. How do we get started? Who? Who should we invite into our brainstorming process? You said you mentioned doing an hour session. Yeah. Who should we invite to this? It really depends on what the goal is. So any player that has some kind of responsibility or some kind of task that’s oriented toward getting to that goal should participate. So that everybody’s, aware and everyone’s energy thought energy and feelings and beliefs are all vested into the process on dh it’s about setting forth. I like one hour. Because for the average person, it takes us about twenty minutes to set ourselves aside and get out of the thinking part. We we really do critique everything and oftentimes criticize everything. So the judgment part of us, when we start to get into a more playful, imagine imaginative and creative arena, it will start. Teo, allow us to dismiss judgment and being free of judgment is a very, very important application here, so that’s part of the reason for blame being playful. I usually encourage the teammates too. I kind of have a little bit of a contest that the more outrageous the suggestion, the better, because here’s, the way i look at that, if you are going teo, aim for one particular star that’s between us on the moon and you’re only aiming for that star, you know, we might not make it, but if you aim for the moon there’s a better likelihood to get to that particular star. So if you go for the really outrageous answers, it’s going to help you to seek beyond what your typical boundary would be, and to get past those limits that would normally come upon you it’s also important that there’s no interruptions for that hour because interruptions change our focus. Like just as i was saying, how going for a run helped me to get out of myself being uninterrupted and to be playful and to have a very positive atmosphere in this circumstance helps you to stay imaginative and creative. It helps to keep you more right brain rather than left brain. You have all the time in the world to be left brain after the intuitive brainstorming session, but right now, it’s about getting creative and get an imaginative and being playful and being free and believing an infinite possibility. How often should we do these sessions? It’s it’s multiple times, right? Yeah, in the beginning, i suggest that people do it once a week because you’re exercising muscles that you’re not that familiar with. I have the same purpose in goal, and if the goal is a very long term goal, i say about a month of once a week and then you could go down to once every two weeks. If you’re finding you really have momentum even once a month after that to maintain that energy moving forward. Okay, should there be a leader of the group or is everybody equal? I usually have someone that’s, a facilitator, not necessarily a leader, but that is very familiar with the structure, you know, tries to encourage playfulness, tries to encourage people to be without limits, nonjudgmental noncritical on someone and ensuring that everybody else is especially non judgmental. Yes, everything is allowed. Yes, more. As you’re saying, the more playful, the better. All right, so we’ve done we do several of these sessions say over a month, what do are we starting to make a decision about how we’re going to proceed or we looking more for signs at that moment? Where are we now after for these let’s say, well, we’ll have a recorder, so every idea will be recorded during the session, so we’ll have a place that we can go back to initially, you know, want to take any speedy action. It’s not about developing your plan in that moment. It is about now going out, having all players seek and say, you know what? We’re in this together with this universe, there are some good ideas there might not be. The ideas that were thinking are the best in this moment, but give us evidence, give us signs, put a stepping stone down in front of us won that we feel is viable, and we feel that we can move in that direction. So in the next week you come back any share stories or even during the week, if you’re bumping into people, you can share stories because sharing stories gives validation, and it helps everybody to suspend doubt and to encourage not needing to think that this is off an off limits topic, so the more encouragement you get, the more people will see signs where they are starting to appear everywhere, from dreams to vanity license plates. Exactly. So we’re sort of opening our mind two on our consciousness too signs that i don’t know what would they have been there otherwise we just wouldn’t have recognised them. How do we hear is that? You know, for may i still really prefer the scientific ideas behind what it is that i dont here’s how i began to understand signs, because for me, it’s like really, you know, if i’m listening to tony show today and all of sudden he says the thing that answers my question, what did ugo did the universe take over tony’s brain? Enforce that sentence out of his mouth that doesn’t. That doesn’t make sense to me, but here’s how it really does work that there’s no such thing as time, so your answers are in the universe. But what the objective of this guidance is is to get you to pay attention to where the signs are so often times you have to understand that conscious. Energy is vibrations thought energy is waves, wave energy intersects with other intersects with other wave energy of other conscious thoughts treyz closely in jargon jail. Now we have a jogging jail here you haven’t you haven’t transcended basically and that’s not what i mean transcended. You haven’t transgressed okay having transgressed, but you’re, you’re almost your close transcendent. The idea is simply that, like we can’t see radio waves, but we can hear the music. The same is true with thought energy, and if your thought energy is intersecting with someone else’s thought energy or with a non physical source of energy, you’re not aware of it. It still feels like your thoughts so you can actually be prompted to think toe look at assign toe look to the left to listen to the lyric of a song and that’s the that’s. The way that it works is that you, it’s basically, like, think about an invisible couple of fingers being put on your cheek asking you to turn to the left or turn to the right or look up or listen well, i whenever i had a break up when i was younger, i always thought, you know but everybody thinks it’s the song lyrics are talking to me about how how melancholy i’m feeling but i think that’s ah, well, maybe it’s coincidence with purpose. Yes. Ok. Could be helping you through the process, is there? Ah, a minimum number of people that that this really works well with me is like, is three enough for there really? Isn’t even two people can really very powerful on dh, not self censoring. Really? Yeah. No. Yeah. Even two people is very effective. As a matter of fact, there are often times just teams that do this and you don’t even have to have the same objective. If you’re working with just one other team member, you can give a half hour to one person’s purpose and one half hour to the other person’s per purpose. If you have a very small organization, it still is effective. Having at least two players, though, helps your own personal bias is to be removed through the vision or the eyes of somebody else. Okay, i like the idea that this could be ongoing. So we could just schedule this hour a week, and maybe i have several devoted to the same. Topic and then switch topics but always have this sort of playful our you have organizations that have have done that devoted time to this over the long term. Yes, i have organizations that this is just a part of their business process. Now for two, three, four years it’s just been an ongoing part. Everyone gets used to that. This is when it’s scheduled this is when we meet, and they do look at it as the fun hour of the week share a client story, one of one of those longer term organizations can you ok, here’s a good example for fora non-profit often times, the biggest challenge is thie ongoing process of fund-raising especially if the fund-raising methods are finite and you need to raise revenue on an annual basis, and you’re starting from scratch, scratch fiscally every year. So one example of something that came out of the brainstorming for one come company one organization was that it’s, an organization that helps young people between the ages of fourteen and eighteen who have started to have issues with the law or with drugs or other different problems, and it gives them a place to maybe find different traits or characteristics within them while being guided by a support staff that can help them. And the challenge definitely is in fund-raising, you know, they have their gala, they have their golf outing. But what was generated from this process was the idea that thie donor-centric a child and have real communication with one of the people that he has is in contact with. So it’s monthly communication, maybe even photographs, a man indication of what kinds of really cool things is being done with their money and their donation. So what that does is it takes it from ah, one year donation of such and such amount of font and then it’s out of their mind, and it becomes a subscription. So every month their credit card is processed, and they have this relationship with the person which encourages them to stay with the subscription. And that came out of intuitive brainstorming works outstanding. Um, share what? What it is that you love about the work that you do with clients, whether individuals or or organizations or companies there’s a lot of things that i love about it. But one is certainly that one is definitely that. Thie benefits that you see in your business, and when he’s starting to see more abundance and more possibility and more wonderful things coming your way with less effort than you used to put in. All of that starts to kind of overflow into your personal life too. So the principles are the same. Whether you’re having these successes in business or you’re having them in your personal life, the principles are the same. You’re exercising muscles that affect every area of your life, so i love to see the personal growth that develops from the business growth and vice versa. So that’s really satisfying the other thing is that it’s fun to see that people start to believe that life can be easier to get out of that mode of life is hard, this is difficult. This is not fun. I can’t get this done and to start to see that when you link into this support that’s there for you and it’s free and that you can use it, that challenges start to fade and have the same extent or the same energetic difficulties that you used to have. So just to see that byproduct of it as well, as really satisfying, we have a lot more time. You won’t share one more thing that you love about the work. Okay, one more thing. Well, i’ll take it to a personal level if you don’t mind. I was one of those people that was, you know, falling into snags constantly relationship wise or people wise or or even my relationship with money. And in the ten years that i’ve been really focusing on this, i have probably fewer challenges than anybody i’ve ever met, and i also feel that i’m probably one of the happiest people i’ve ever met, which i’m going to tell you. A decade ago, i didn’t know it was even possible. I feel like i’m in a joint venture with the universe and yes, you are all right, karen garvey. You will find her at the answer’s unlimited dotcom. Thank you so much for being against karen. Thank you, it’s been a real pleasure. We’ll take a break when we come back a little more live listener love tony’s take two and then gene takagi is with us to talk about the poll latto paul part do stay with us e-giving didn’t think dick tooting, getting dink, dink, dink. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. Get in. E-giving good. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural method i can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Hi, i’m ostomel role, and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour. Eleven a m. We’re gonna have fun. Shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re gonna invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a. M on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Dahna i’m leslie goldman with the us fund for unicef, and i’m casey rotter with us fun for unison. You’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Metoo now more live listener love teo washington, d c, san francisco and jamaican new york. Where comes to coast? Jamaica have courses in queens. Very diverse neighborhood. So could be anybody listening in jamaica, new york. What comes to coast today and there’s? More live listener love coming from coming from abroad. My tony’s take two. This week is about my blog’s, which was are you having fun? Because last weekend i was a judge at the thirty first annual coney island mermaid parade and it was it was great fun. There were mermaids. There were mermaid ls. There were octopuses, burlesque dancers, ice skaters, ice skaters in in june, on on a float that had, i guess, in that ice on it they were skating. There was even a pabst blue ribbon float, pbr float. And that just got me thinking about summer fun. So my block this week is are you having fun? Because it is summer and my suggestion that you make time for fun, you have to make the time because you won’t just find it. But i think it’s very well worth doing. There are pictures from the mermaid parade on my blog’s at tony. Martignetti dot com, including a bunch of mermaids and that is tony’s take two for friday twenty eighth of june twenty sixth show of the year and my one hundred forty eighth show. The one hundred fiftieth is going to be on july twelfth. There’s nothing special planned for the hundred fiftieth show. It’ll be it’ll be a laid back sesquicentennial. My pleasure, as it always is. When he’s here to welcome jean takagi he’s, the principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco, he edits the very popular non-profit law blawg dot com. And you can follow him on twitter at gt a k g attack. Gee, tak, welcome back. Hey, tony, how are you? I’m great that’s a little rhyme i made. I just i just thought that right now. Is that what i’m what an improviser. Welcome back. Okay, um, we are continuing our conversation from back in may may tenth, to be exact when we were talking about dan piela tas viral video. The way we think about charities is dead wrong. And we talked about compensation and advertising and marketing and risk taking, and we want to continue their two. Other things that you blogged about it on the first of those is time constraints that non-profits don’t have the luxury of time. What? What air dan’s concerns there. I think tony, you know, because the public and thunders appear to have really little patients for non-profits that failed, teo immediately make an impact that they can report back there’s. Just this lack of patient capital. It’s, maybe a buzz term that people use in this industry, that’s willing to wait it out and allow non-profits to develop the right infrastructure and systems, and perhaps the right, uh, foundations to go to scale before being able to deliver the type of results that the public and that institutional thunders they’re looking for, and then makes a very good point there. I have a clip of him talking about this, relating it, to analogizing it to the corporate side. So amazon went for six years without returning any profit to investors, and people had patients. They knew that there was a long term objective down the line of building market. Dahna. But if a nonprofit organization ever had a dream of building magnificent scale that required for six years, no money was going to go to the needy was all, then be invested in building the scale. We would expect the crucifixion. That’s damp latto is there? Is there something we can do about this game? And he he has a very good example that if if if charity went six years without spending money on mission, there would be there would be a lot of trouble that there would be, and there would be legal problems a cz well, there there is a principle it’s rarely used, and because there are no sort of really english or plain english words for this high risk jargon j hope that it’s called the commensurate test for pizza basically all right, commencement fancy words and just basically means that a charity has to spend its resource is in line with its mission, and that includes the amount of financial resources it has and what amount is going to program versus administrative and fund-raising so if you were to spend and and i’m not actually a man of that example that that dan produced with amazon, i’ll explain that in a second. But if you were to spend six years building infrastructure and admit zsystems to go to magnificent scale without spending a penny on program that’s going to be a violation of the commensurate test almost surely on dh there may be others from some other problems with that as well. The reason, tony, i don’t like it. Maybe you could tell me how you feel is well, when amazon was building up for six years, it was still selling books and producing revenues and inspiring confidence in its investors if a non-profit were to do nothing but build infrastructure for six years and not do any programming it’s not been inspire confidence in its investors. And it’s not really the legal problem it’s the ability to track capitol problem if it’s not showing any demonstrate, you know, demonstration of its ability. Tio achieved this massive scale of the project can’t show benchmarks along the way. And the public and institutional investors, they’re just not going to believe in this, i say all right, so there was there was mission related work going on in amazon for those six years that’s so the analogy isn’t really great. That’s my feeling okay, mission related work being sales. They just maybe weren’t profitable, but they were doing some mission related work. Okay, now, lobbying can be effective, but in making chain making social change but that’s largely, and we’ve talked about this before prohibited. Well, actually, i correctly there okay tony so non-profit public charities and engage in quite a significant amount of lobbying without passing the threshold. But locking and advocacy were generally it takes time to do. And so, in that sense, an investment in time requires some patients there and again, patients capital, it’s, it’s, an investment in time, and supporters of those lobbying advocacy efforts are going to have to wait it out to see what may happen, and sometimes a change in the laws we’ve seen with the supreme court decisions recently. Sometimes changes in the law are much, much more powerful than just direct services. Let’s move to another of dan’s concerns. The final one, which is that non-profits don’t attract profit. Tio don’t don’t make profit to attract risk. Yeah, great, great point so for-profit can attract equity owners, and they can use that to make investments in, you know, big projects that might become sustainable and be able to deliver charitable goods to communities and made on a consistent basis and non-profits can attract that equity capital because, of course, non-profits don’t have owners now i actually don’t have a problem with that. And, tony, maybe you could tell me what you think. I don’t think we want tohave charitable non-profits with shareholders who put pressures on getting a financial return for their investments think non-profits are difficult enough to run in having shareholders there is just gonna complicate things even more. Well, we’re we’re moving. I don’t want to say we’re moving to that, but there are these, um, other ways of self-funding funding social change, like, like the social impact bonds. And i think you and i have talked about those before and just these things that fall under pr ize programme related investments that are sort of that way. I mean, there’s sort of a midline yeah, i think the midline that you’re speaking up that’s, where we’re trying to go, so we don’t really want non-profits with shareholders so i don’t think we want non-profits tohave equity investments in them, but what we do want our ways for investors to be able to invest in social good, so there are a few ways to do that one is, well, already social investors could make loans to non-profit on and, you know, if they want to get a financial return, you know, in line with the fair and, you know, market rate, return for their loan, um, i’m sure charities would love that if they could go a little bit more with the risk than a bank might pick, then charities have access two new capital, but that depends upon inspiring confidence in those social investors. Private foundations can make program related investments, as you mentioned, and those who take the form of usually loans or guarantees that will be for the benefit of non-profits to run their program and the private foundations aren’t expecting sort of a big production of income or appreciation. They’ve got any equity investments in return, but they could do that already got social impact bonds that you talked about such a cool idea where we don’t really know if they’re going to work because it’s such a a new idea, but the government issues the bonds and pays on ly if the social goals are met, and so the investors and the bonds are taking a risk that the social the non-profits that air contract it with the money that the bonds produce are going to be able to to keep their goals. And new york has got a great experiment going on with goldman sachs and recidivism that’s going to be a great example for for us to see whether this is going to really produce impact or not. I think the last part is maybe those hybrid organizations, those air, not non-profits, but they’re kind of in this cool space somewhere in between traditional for-profit organizations and non-profits and these air like the benefit corporation, flexible purpose corporations, social purpose corporation, low profit, limited liability companies that kind of occupying this space in the spectrum between social good and financial returns for shareholders and i think that’s going to be an exciting space. Did you watch maria simple and i talked about finding foundations that will do these program related investments, and that show was on march. Eighth of this year what’s that goldman sachs and recidivism example that you mentioned jean i’m not aware of that. Well, basically goldman sachs is is the bond is the investor in the bond so they bought the bond and they’re going to profit on ly if the non-profit center involved are able to reduce the receipt of ism so the government will pay out based on the savings that they get from reducing prisoner wei have recidivism on so you know it’s it’s kind of a win win situation if it all works, if there is actually impact. So if the government makes the right that on the service provider on the non-profits and they do a good job of reducing recidivism, then the government will save money overall used some of that savings to pay the bondholders which in this case is goldman sachs and so, you know, theoretically a great model sticking the right partners that’s going to be the tough, the tough thing and then finding the right buyers, goldman sachs came out and, you know, took a shot of the investor here. But will the public buy it? Same problem with the hybrid organizations. We talked about, we see a lot of private individuals twisted in doing social good, who are investing in this. But we haven’t seen big institutional investors come in in a big way yet, and i think that’s follow-up do you know how much goldman sachs invested in the in the bonds? I don’t think i could be quoted for that, but i think it was somewhere with around seven million dollars, okay, all right, that’s, right, let’s say. We’ll take our break, and when we come back, we’re going to talk about the overhead myth. That letter that just came out very recently, and also an oregon law that’s related to this and putting a cap on. Well, sort of putting a cap on the amount that can go to non program related activities. So stay with us. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Buy-in are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Buy-in have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Zoho dahna hyre more live listener love to columbus, ohio, new york, new york. Welcome, fujisawa, japan, can it? You are beijing, china. Many people in beijing. Are you together? Do you know each other? Beijing welcome. Ni hao. Jean let’s. Talk about the the overhead myth letter. Um, this was signed by the leaders of the better business bureau wise giving alliance, um, guide star and charity navigator and ken berger from charity navigator, ceo of ceo. There has been has been a guest. This letter is is just come out very recently ordered. I just learned about it very recently. Now it came out very recently, just a few days ago. Ok, they didn’t put a date on it. That’s the first thing i learned in grade school, you supposed to put a date on your letter and then you do the inside address and then the greeting, but they don’t have they have neither an inside address nor a date, but okay, it came out very recently on dh. Why is this creating a lot of buzz in non-profits? But it’s creating a lot of buzz? Because i think these charity, some of them are charities, ratings organizations, some of them just provide information about charities to the public. But there’s been a widespread feeling among charities that thie over admit that they’re talking about was actually perpetuated by some of these organizations in terms of rating charities, by virtue of what they’re programmatic expenses were versus their administrative and fund-raising expenses, very much the argument that pelota was talking about as well. And the feeling was that the ratings agencies were e-giving low scores to anybody that had this high overhead ratio. I know so it’s ah it’s, a little it’s, little crusty of ah, of ken berger to be signing this, to quote the letter which is against signed by all three the percent of charity expenses that go to administrative and fund-raising costs commonly referred to as overhead is a poor measure of a charity’s performance and that’s very early in the letter. And then they go on to encourage donors it’s addressed to the donors of america. They encourage, um, donors to think about on dh consider lots of other factors besides overhead myth overhead overhead. Um, yeah, it seems a little hypocritical. Yeah, and i think they go back. I think the first sentence is probably not reflective what they actually believe that overhead is a poor measure of the charity performance. I think what they’re trying to say. And i think the rest of the letter describes it is that overhead alone is a port measures charity performance because they go, they go on and say in the letter, but overhead offers insight and can be a valid data point for rooting out fraud and poor financial management. But in most cases, and i think the message to donors is this and i don’t want to detract from that messages that focusing on overhead alone does more damage than good. And i absolutely we believe in that as well. Yes, for sure. And i am trying to get the three signers of the letter as guests together. I already reached out tio the better business bureau wise giving alliance and charity navigator. I don’t have a connection to guide star, but i’m trying. I would like to have a show with the three of them to let me see if i could make that connection for you. Honey. Really? You know somebody it ah, guidestar. I do. Oh, okay. Thank you. Well, this is good. Look at this intuitive brainstorming. It works. It works. I put the message out and i got an answer right back. This is incredible, it’s. Just that in advance to pardon me. You must have known that in advance. No, i no. I mean, what do you mean, what? I must have known what they’re what your intuition told you to go in this direction. Well, the my first guest, we were talking about intuitive brainstorming. Instead of you start to put something out. Then you’ll get signs back. And i was going to start looking at vanity license plates, but but i don’t have to thank you, jean. That would be a credit that’s. Incredible. This is the works system works. Um, okay. Now, over up in oregon and i learned is not oregon. I was admonished by by tim sample who’s amy sample ward’s father. He called in from oregon once. There’s no. E on oregon. So it’s not there’s. No e on oregon. So it’s, not oregon. So those of you were pronouncing it wrong. Please be admonished. Over and up in oregon. They have ah, new law. That sort of puts a cap on how? Much charities khun spend on non program it’s kind of going against the flow of the theme that we’ve been. We’ve been focused on you, we’re going right? Is this back and forth? I know. So yes, there’s a house bill called two thousand sixty i believe it was signed into the law and is going to go into effect in a few months and basically it allows the attorney general to disqualify a charity from being able to receive deductible contributions and that’s just for state income tax purposes because federal income taxes are outside of oregon’s jurisdiction, so deductible contributions from the state income tax perspective if they don’t meet a thirty percent threshold, thirty percent programmatic expenses versus sort of administrative and fund-raising if they’re not real reaching that threshold, uh, for three years over a three year period, and they may not be able to receive deductible contributions from the state resident, and they have tio disclose that publicly, yeah, absolutely so they disclose it, or they can face a penalty of up to twenty five thousand dollars, and once they disclosed that the attorney general can come in and say, well, anybody donating to this? Charity will not be eligible to receive a deductible contribution for a state income tax purposes. Um, and i didn’t know it was over three years, the three year period. Okay, so three, if you’re if you’re spending less than thirty percent of your revenue on program for three consecutive years than in the third year, that’s when you have to disclose it, uh, when your fourth year in the force you closing the previous three years, okay? And if you fail on the previous three years going for the attorney general, but it could disqualify you. So after those three years, you would report it. Ok, does it have to be three consecutive years, or can you do less than thirty? More than thirty, less than thirty? More than thirty, less than thirty that’s? Three? But it was over five years. I think it’s three consecutive years and they don’t look at each year in isolation. They take a look at a rolling three year calendar. Oh, i see. Okay, um, what’s, your what’s, your opinion of this law that i think is draconian? Yeah, i i think it’s going to resonate with some of the public because you know, this week we also saw another story big story from cnn talked about the city worth charities in the united states and these air, all out liars, but also tremendously high overhead, racial and hardly any programmatic spending with, you know, cumulatively, like billions of dollars involved or hundreds of millions. So they just picked out the most egregious cases and, you know, outrages the public and the public puts pressure on the legislature to create laws to prevent those things from happening. And then we get laws like the one in oregon? Yeah, i don’t care for those, you know, fifty worse than you know, the irs does something similar too well, no, that know the irs different? No, i’m sorry they generalize about charity scams, but they don’t specifically name charities. I don’t like these headline grabbing things. It it tarnishes the entire sector it does for the vast majority of attorneys that are doing very good work. It’s it’s hard to sit there and get a hit from a donor confidence because of those real outlier. So you think they’ll be a public backlash in oregon? Well, i think the charitable sector is going toe push. Back a little bit on this, but i think actually this may be a trend, and we may see more states create these laws. Well, actually, the non-profit association of oregon endorsed the law. Yeah, they felt like this was kind of a benchmark minimum, although i think they said in a statement, i think there’s a comment field on the overhead mid fight where somebody, a representative of that association, made a statement that there shouldn’t be a single number threshold that indicate a good performing charity. This is a poor performing one, but they felt like thirty percent over three years was kind of the bottom line number that any charity should be able to meet. And i’m not sure that that that’s really something that you can back-up yeah, yeah, we have to leave it there. Gene, thank you very much. Great, thank you so much, durney i enjoyed it, jean takagi, you’ll find him at non-profit law blogged dot com and at g tack on twitter next week, beth cantor, author of the network non-profit and measuring the network to non-profit we talked it fund-raising day last month about engagement and outcomes, and i’ll have that. Interview unless i can get the three authors from the overhead myth to come, i don’t know if we could get them as quickly as next week, but they’ll take precedence over that beth cantor interview. We’ll run that another time if i could get the three of them, but i’ll try to get through them some time. Also next week, scott koegler, our tech contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news returns. We’re going to talk about apse for your tablet. Check us out on the social networks youtube, facebook, twitter you know the litany. The links are on my block at tony martignetti dot com insert sponsor message over nine thousand leaders, fundraisers and board members of small and midsize charities. Listen each week contact me on my block to talk about sponsoring the show. Sam loves that music so much he played it a little prematurely. Our creative producer was claire meyerhoff sam liebowitz. The one playing the music is our line producer and the show’s social media is by regina walton of organic social media. The remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. I hope that you will tune in next week at talking alternative dot com friday one two to eastern durney dahna e-giving thing duitz good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. Dahna cubine are you a female entrepreneur ready to break through? 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