123: The Future Of Planned Giving Marketing & Free Radio And TV To Boost Online Ticket Sales – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Greg Warner, founder of MarketSmart

Amy Spencer, market manager for Blackbaud & Kevin Russell, professional services manager for Blackbaud

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.com

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Welcome to the new year it’s january fourth of the new year. I hope you had lots of time for family and friends and good times over the holiday and time off from work. Oh, how i hope that you were with me long ago on december twenty first because i’d feel terrible if i had heard that you missed candidates for causes. Robert egger is the president of sea forward working to rally candidates around non-profit platforms, he and i talked about how to assess those in your local races, getting the non-profit agenda before them and how to support the candidates who step up. Also, it was computers crash. Scott koegler, the editor of non-profit technology news and our tech contributor, reminded us that technology can let us down imagine that your computer hardware will only last so long, and you should have a plan for replacing it to avoid a crisis. I talked to this former chief information officer about the hardware, life cycle, budgeting and planning this week the future of planned giving marketing greg warner, the founder of marketsmart, shares his insights on multi-channel awareness building, generating and cultivating leads and tracking what works and free radio and tv to boost online ticket sales. Amy spencer, market manager for blackbaud, and kevin russell, professional services manager for blackbaud i want you to recognize that you do have leverage with the media and that sending press releases is no longer the way to get radio and tv exposure for your event. This was pre recorded at the bb khan twenty twelve conference last october between the guests on tony’s take to my block is challenge the status quo, i heard you don’t be afraid to ask why i will talk about that. And after the bb con interview toward the end of the show, i’ll talk a bit about the just revived ira charitable rollover that’s getting a lot of talk in plant e-giving circles right now, it’s my very pleasure to ah, welcome greg warner. He is an experienced multi-channel marketing executive, he’s made tens of thousands of cold calls and closed thousands of deals, which give him a unique perspective into howto partner sales strategies with targeted marketing initiatives, his company marketsmart has helped lots of non-profits, including the american diabetes association, life matters, home health care, the association of the u s army and city of hope cancerous search center on twitter he’s at greg marketsmart he runs the linked in group smart planned giving marketers greg warner, welcome to the show. Hi, tony. Thank you. Happy new year. Thank you very much. Yeah. It’s. A good one. It’s going to be a good one. All right, we got it. We got the future of plan giving marketing to look forward to this is something to live for. Um, you want teo? See non-profits do broader prospecting around planned e-giving what? Your ideas around finding new prospects? Well, the first concept is a bit non donors and people that you may not find on your radar through predictive analytics or data modelling, uh, often will leave you gifts. And some of our clients tell us it’s more than fifty percent of their plan gift not all but that’s. A sizeable number. And you want to leave that on the table? Okay, so you need to broaden your approach, okay? And, uh, let’s talk about some of the waste to get doing. That ok? Well, it all depends on how much money you have, of course, and most folks don’t have a lot of money. So you want to look at the, uh, tools and channels that are available to you, uh, in order, teo, you broaden your reach, one of them, and i know a lot of people probably cringing the sound of the word facebook, but, you know, it’s a very simple thing when you think about the fact that people who engage with your organization on facebook they like you. Yeah, you know, we don’t cringe on this show. We don’t cringe around facebook way have any sample ward social media contributor she’s on every month talking about lots of social media networks, but facebook certainly among them. So we don’t. We don’t cringe when you talk about staying playing e-giving circles sometimes ah, cringe at that because it’s hard for folks in plan giving, understand how to connect the dots. Okay, well, let’s, let’s connect them for them. Why? Why should plan e-giving professionals be paying attention to facebook? Beyond the fact that a billion people are on facebook, but they’re concerned typically is age right playing, giving? You want to talk to people in their sixties, seventies eighties? The concern is that they’re not on facebook, but what? Where’s? The disconnect. Okay, so first you need to dispel the myth. So my mother in law come on. By the way, i got into all this because my wife’s a diabetic and i wanted to find a way to generate lots of money for the american diabetes association. Okay, my mother in law, of course, her mom is seventy two years old. I don’t think there’s too many people who are on facebook more than my mother in law. And again, she’s seventy two years old. Now what? God, god bless your mother in law. Of course i love all mothers in law, but even the ones that aren’t my own love them all but that’s, you know, people going well, that’s an anecdote. Okay, there’s one seventy two year old what do we know in aggregate? About sixty, seventy, eighty year olds prevalence on facebook. Well, i don’t have statistics on that, so i don’t know if i wantto start shooting off on that. But i will say that they have mor e i think it’s easy. To say that they probably have more time on their hands, right? Well, what what’s been the experience with your clients around facebook and planned e-giving well, here, here’s, just a basic example is that if those folks are there and let’s let’s, remember that younger donors forties and fifties air really when people are making their first will anyway, and if you want to get in there, will you should be planting the seeds of legacy gift because everyone at some point is going to contemplate their immortality, and they’re what ruffle james calls a symbolic immortality. So how can they live on after their lifetime? Okay, and if you start planting seeds just with basic awareness efforts, meaning if you get a gift, why not talk about it on facebook? How you say it, you have teo talk to your social media folks, make sure that you’re not overselling our overstating but it’s news, it’s information it’s something that’ll plant seeds in people’s minds. Okay, excellent there’s there’s an idea what else? What else should we be doing on facebook around planned e-giving well, if you have a comprehensive marketing plan and you have a lot of people who like your, um your page, then? It’s really important to realize that you can advertise on facebook so you can advertise to your like the people who like you? Yes, with, um, uh, little ads driving them to a landing page. The best offer is something like an offer free estate planning information or how to make a will. Okay, so this is buying facebook ads buying a facebook ad related to plan giving. Yeah, and you only pay for every time someone clicks on it. Or you can pay for impressions. But it’s very inexpensive. Really. Okay, what does that mean? Watch now, i haven’t had anybody in jargon jail for weeks and weeks, but you’re skating very close on since it’s been so long, i have a very itchy trigger finger to throw somebody in there. So what does that mean? Facebook, you can pay by the impression every time that your ad appears is considered an impression to a user versus paying by the click. Right? Okay, all right. We have just about two minutes before a break. Do you like to see greg non-profits have a devoted planned e-giving facebook page or you’re talking about the organizations overall presence in there on their own face and their facebook page. Without a doubt, i think it just should be something that implemented integrated into their overall presence and just it’s news it’s just sharing information with their friends. Okay, so so not necessarily a devoted planned e-giving facebook page for the charity. Okay, nobody well, i don’t think anyone will go to that, okay, what’s again, just about a minute before a break. What’s another, um, channel that you like to see exploited in planned e-giving that that people aren’t doing enough? Well, i think email has the most power when it comes to plan giving marketing, and we’ll have tto dig into that a little bit more when we come back. But it’s so inexpensive, but it can also be used the wrong way. It’s a hammer like you could break stuff with it, or you could build stuff with it. Okay, we want to build, right? Yep. Okay. As greg suggested, we will talk more about email and other channels and the future of e-giving marketing right now, i’ve got to send some live listener love. Oakland, california. Atlanta, georgia. Shanghai, china taipei, taiwan. Welcome. Live listener love to those four cities when we come back more with greg warner in the future of plan giving marketing. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping huntress people be better business people. Are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications. That’s. The answer. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent more live listener love. Seoul, korea fukuoka, japan. You’re with us regularly. Soul and food, coco, thank you very much. New bern, north carolina, bethlehem, pennsylvania. Live listener, love all around the world, it’s. Incredible. All right, greg, whatever charity’s not doing with email, or why, what do you see them using it as a hammer? How are we misusing it? Well, a lot of times, especially for plan giving marketing. Email is used to sort of shout out at their prospective donors that you know, for instance, here’s a whole bunch of information about ways that you can make a plan gift here’s tax avoidance strategies. You know, um, shouting in the for-profit world, the private sector just like in the nonprofit world, it’s never a good idea to just blast and spray messages, but rather to generate leads and find people who want to hear from you and then cultivate those leads with highly relevant messages over a long period of time. Okay, let’s, break this down a little bit. How do we how do we get started in being more sophisticated with our email? Okay, well, again, first is starting with a good list and that’s what we’ll call a opt in list, and that begins with offering something in your awareness campaigns or your acquisition campaigns usually plan giving. Or i would say, a state planning information to get people to request that offer. You always need a good offer. Is that them? When they do, they go into the culture cultivation pool. Is that the opt in the acceptance of the offer? Is that what you mean, by opt in where you’re treading close again, you want teo, let them know that you’ll be sending them or information when you send them the first piece of information and okay. So after you send them what they’ve asked for a tte the same time, you send them that they would ask for your telling them that they will be getting mohr and you give them a chance to opt out of getting more exactly. Okay, all right, you better watch yourself in drug in jail. Your little your little risk taker? Uh, yeah. I want to be in jargon. No, i’m kidding. I don’t. I don’t get the first person i said don’t smack me around later. All right, well, don’t tease me. Um, let’s. See what? We have a good list. We haven’t opted in list. What’s next in being more sophisticated with email. Okay, if you’ve done your opt in, right and let me take one quick step backwards is that you’ll ask people what are their interest? What? You know, are they looking for ways teo get income for life that would kind of put them into the pool of possibly wanting message is that refer to charitable gift annuities. Okay, now, how do you how do you ask these questions? You know, in a poll by email or how you eliciting this information? Generally, before you give them the information that they want. Like if it’s a state planning information, you’ll want to ask them what topics are interesting to them. Ok, how do you ask that in an email with a pole or a link to a paul? How do you do that? Okay, good. It’s going generally part of the landing page. Okay. So where they request information that’s on a page that they lend to request that information, then the questions pop up. Okay. Do you want this information? Do you want this brochure or that one? Uh, you know what topics are you interested in? You can even ask a tw. What stage are you in? In the consideration process? Have you ever considered leaving a gift in your will? The number of questions that you could ask you should be. Keep it short, but you should try a new one. Okay, so you’re trying to get people to identify themselves as having interest in plant e-giving topics and specifically which one’s, right. Which dump and most important, why not throw in the question? Have you already left a gift? Yes. Okay, right. Critical physical because you’ll fight. Go find a lot of people. The next step is sending relevant information over time. If they’ve already left a gift, will first, of course, you’re going to want to thank them, hopefully personally, but at the very least, you’re going to want to put them on a cultivation or i’m sorry a stewardship track. You want to welcome them to your recognition society for planned e-giving or however it is, you do it to say thank you over the long term. Yes. Okay, okay. That was a little digression, but an important one. Very important. You don’t want to lose that gift. Remember, you can always lose a gift. Just is often just as much as you get one. If you’re not. If you’re not saying thank you enough and properly and for sure, after the person reveals that they’ve included you. Yes, absolutely so let’s. Go back now you have ah, you have your you’ve qualified your list and it’s it’s opted not only opt in, but, you know the topics that people are interested in each person’s interested in how do you continue to become more sophisticated with your email? Okay, now i’m going to try my best to stay out of jargon jail. You said you wanted to be there with your flapper somebody’s into flip flopping. He’s a flip flopper page. Okay, cookie can be placed on their computer. Yes, not only are they opting in for your messages, but if they didn’t fill out the form because they just decided not to. Because of that cookie, they could get ongoing banner ads for quite a while. As long as you decide throughout wherever they navigate on the internet, really and that’s called retargeting, so if they got interrupted, if they just decided not to fill it out, then you could have these ads driving them back to that page or a different page, maybe just sending them to maur, symbolic immortality messages or videos or something different that’s about legacy e-giving interesting. Now, i know this goes on because after i fill out our something or i go to a site somewhere, then you know from time to time i’ll see banner ads or pop. Up ads on a completely different sites related to the topic that that i was exploring a week earlier. So i know this nefarious stuff goes on. It’s a highly effective kind of marketing. It works, and again, you can pay for it per click or by impressions. Okay, thousands. Okay. And tell me, what is this marketing called again? That retargeting retargeting? Okay, because you’re re targeting the person’s advertising. Is that why it’s called that? Yeah. They already got halfway to making a decision to commit to something with you, but they didn’t go over the edge. So you want to read the this is most famous for shopping cart marketing? Like if you were on amazon dot com. But you didn’t buy that that that book? Yes. They’ll you ads for similar book, right? They know the amazon, of course. Very sophisticated. Okay, but no reason. Charity shouldn’t be equally sophisticated. Course. Okay. Is there more? What else can we say about email? This is very interesting. Okay, so once you get them to opt in and fill out their information so that you you know what they’re interested in and you’ve got that cookie, then you can start tracking them schnoll not only should they go on track that we call marketing automation tracks to get emails that are relevant to their interests, but you need to track where they click every time you send those e mails. And again because of this sophisticated tracking that i’m talking about in these cookies and, uh, i p address capturing i p address, by the way, is just the address of where their computer’s located. Thank you. Okay, by using those tracking tools, you can begin to capture who’s coming back specifically which individual person their name is coming back and visiting other pages that you are pushing them, too, with your ongoing marketing email. Okay, as they come back and as they engage more, the more they more they engage. They can then get lead scores, so if they stay online for a certain period of time, if they click on a certain number of pages, if they keep coming back three, four times, you can determine what kind of scores you want to give each individual person and program it, then based on where they go, how often they come back all those different things you can program different messages. You can slow down the number of messages that go out or increase the number of messages that go out each individual and again they need they should be relevant based on their interests. And this should break apart, sort of into into gosh, like a a flow chart, so that if they change their mind from the c g eight track for charitable gift annuities, then perhaps they moved to the bequest track because of where they’ve been clicking. Then they get different messages. I see. Let me remind listeners greg warner is the founder of marketsmart, which you’ll find at i marketsmart dot com either letter i so this email sophistication that you’re talking about can all be automated. You mentioned? Yeah, the the idea is to try and plan it all out as best as you can in the beginning. Okay, right. Okay. So you have your laying out these different tracks, but then you’re also tweaking as you get results back from all this tracking. Right, exactly. Takes time. And no, no everybody’s campaign is different. You have to make it. Look at all that. All the tracking and all the data. You’re collecting, review it and then tweak the messages. But all this tracking is valuable because you’re seeing people are not going to certain pages or you’re seeing an abundance of people clicking on different options so you can see the way people are moving through your through your whole system. Exactly. And i want to throw in the traditional marketing combined with this is very important because email is powerful and and you can do all this, but you can also signal to then send certain types of letters and brochures or whatever to these folks based on their interests. Okay? And that gives it an even bigger hit. Because, again, a cz you mentioned, a lot of these folks are older, and this is what i call an enterprise decision in the private sector. This is not donating. Five dollars or twenty five dollars, is creating a legacy for yourself and it’s. Usually a sizable gift. Okay. Okay. So we’re not cultivating these people for for small annual gifts or something like that? No, no. And and the idea is that for enterprise decisions, people usually want, uh, some kind of printed material. They want personalization they want. A hand signed letter. You know, i always, uh i look att helling plan gives similar toe selling cars. I mean, generally, the gift size is about what a car costs and, uh, it’s a long cultivation process on dh some people by mini coopers and some people buy bentleys, right? So there’s, plenty of room in plan giving space for all the people on that entire spectrum. Give me we have just a couple minutes, and i want to get into your some of your artist work also and how that relates to this. But you mentioned that email could be a hammer what’s one way that aside from to frequent that’s that’s an easy one we know to frequent emails could be bad. What’s another way that email could be abused and turn off your prospects well, if you’re shouting ill irrelevant information at them on dh often, uh, this can relate to tax avoidance strategies. There is a certain segment of the population and plan giving donor base that is very motivated by that. And i don’t wanna offend all the folks or my potential clients. But in plain giving there’s too much of a focus on taxes or i should say, death and taxes. Yeah, that’s really not. What motivates people? It’s no it’s love of the institution. So but with the with the targeted information that you have the specific information that you have prospect by prospect you can avoid sending tax avoidance information to someone who only wants to talk about a charitable request. And the reason that they’re interested in plan giving is that they love your institution. Exactly. Okay, i’m gonna i’m gonna neo-sage go into a different direction. You’re you’re very much an artist, oil painter, musician, singer and songwriter what’s the what’s, the relationship between the arts and marketing and sales. Wow, boy, i didn’t realize you did that kind of research on me. Thank you. Put it in your bottoms and research at all. I mean, i might have to think about that a little bit off the top of your head. What’s. The relationship was voted class artist when i was a kid in high school. But that’s not so i that’s not your credential. That’s not why it’s in your bio is because in high school you were voted class artist. Now you know it’s, just something. Women on morals if that’s the case he’s been awhile there, right brained people on their left brain people. And i think in business, in marketing, in anything you do, you’ve got to be creative and and open your mind to new ideas at any moment. You really have to just kind of keep, keep trying new things and be experimental and dahna whether you’re painting or writing a song or singing a song it’s all, uh, about experiments and changing things up, tio get that harmony to be better to get that color, to be better to get something to move people in an emotional way. Bilich outstanding and that’s and that’s what we just finish talking about in in plan giving marketing. Um, what is it you love about this work, greg? Wow. It’s interesting. I was talking to our account coordinator today. Uh, we were working on a new campaign for the navy marine corps relief society, which were just so excited about this and that hole at the end of it, we spent an hour and a half in front of a huge white board we have in our office and we go through everything. Everything. Everything, and then i looked at her at the end and i said, you know, what’s so great about this is that at the end of this, we’re gonna run. We’re going to raise so much money for sailors, marines and their families isn’t that awesome? And i just got this warm feeling inside. I’m like, isn’t this great? I mean, i get paid to do this and it’s just i’m gushing because that’s it’s so fantastic. Outstanding. Greg warner is the founder of market smart, which you’ll find it. I’m marketsmart dot com on twitter he’s at greg marketsmart and you can find him in the linked in group smart plan e-giving marketers lots of smart lots of smart going on. Greg warner, thank you very much for being a guest’s. Been a real pleasure. Thanks, tony. My pleasure. Right now we’re going to take a break. You know about that. And when we come back, uh, what the heck we’ll do, tony steak too, of course is tony’s take do and then we have free radio and tv to boost online ticket sales. So stay with me e-giving didn’t think dick tooting good ending things you’re listening to the talking alternate network. E-giving cubine hi, i’m donna and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family court, co parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications? Then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Hi, i’m kate piela, executive director of dance, new amsterdam. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Welcome back time for tony’s take two at roughly thirty two minutes into the hour. My block this week is challenge the status quo from questioning the way you track prospect visits in your office. Teo revamping a newsletter concept maybe, or adding a theme too on annual dinner or lunch that seems to be kind of in a doldrum year after year. My urging is that you start to question, how come we do it this way? Why? Why did we do it this way and not not just accept tradition? Which, as as a ah boy scout leader told me when i was in my teens, is often a mistake made more than once? That was his definition of tradition, so i’m just charging you don’t be afraid to challenge why do we do things this way? Especially if you’re the one who’s in the trenches doing the work day after day, year after year? You have an outstanding perspective on which things aren’t working and how they might work better, and my suggestion is that you start asking questions. The ones who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do. Oh, and in my block post there’s an apple video, which is a commercial around that exact that exact thought and the blah ge is called challenge the status quo, you’ll find it at tony martignetti dot com and that is tony’s take two for friday, january fourth, the first show of the year. I want to send some more live listener love kitakyushu, japan i hope i’m pronouncing it right we had a dispute in the in the in the studio here i went with tata kyushu, japan i hope that’s correct live listener love here’s one i know i can get laurel, maryland i hope i pronounced that right laurel marilyn live listener love and new york new york where are you? Where in new york, new york? I wish? Tweet us, use the hashtag non-profit radio and tell us where in new york, new york you are. We’re on west seventy second street right now, and i have now a pre recorded panel discussion to people from bb khan twenty twelve conference and they’re talking about how to use tv and radio for free. Teo, increase your online ticket sales amy spencer, amy spencer and kevin russell and here is that interview. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of bb khan twenty twelve we’re outside washington, d c at the gaylord convention center with me now are amy spencer and kevin russell. Amy is market manager for arts and cultural at blackbaud and kevin russell is professional service. Is that’s a plural professional services manager at blackbaud he delivers multiple services professionally, maybe. Kevin welcome. Thank you for having it. It’s a pleasure to have you. Thanks for taking time on a very busy day. Problem you’re your seminar topic is pretty curious. Make your online ticket sales soar with television and radio for free. Amy, why don’t you acquaint us generally with what the possibilities are? I was sure. Well, i think the thing that people need to understand is that i have well have twelve years in background in tv, so i was the general sales manager of the tv station, so what i did was i actually set the pricing, and i’d look at thehe veils and i and i sold the inventory things like that and what people most often thought that they could come into the building and say, well, i know by law, you have to give me free advertising and you don’t they’re by n a be the national association of broadcasters, we do not have to sell to any certain group which covers non-profit so i think one of things that people need to understand is that they don’t owe you anything, however, a lot of times they would come in very entitled at times and say, here’s, what i need you to do and here’s my p s a and i want it on the air and i’d preferred in the news and if not primes, ok, well, that would get them nowhere. So the thing that i would always say is, first and foremost, you have to figure out what to leverage on the non-profit side that you could take to the tv stations, and there are a lot of different ways to do it, and i still have a few tips and tricks, but one of the things is to figure out who in the tv station you can get to know and one of them is your general manager, and one of them is your general sales manager, and you have to explain to them that you have brand equity, that they can leverage and also make money from so not unlike fund-raising this is we’re actually going build some relationships in theory. Yes. Ok. So for those organizations who picked up the phone and called me a sudden appointment, it was amazing how many of those actually got on the air and that was maybe before they even needed something from you or wanted something from her act. Oh, this relationship it is. It is one o one. So so a couple things is they need to figure out i think there are three different ways non-profits khun get on tv and or radio for free? Um one they need to look at their board. They need to figure out who was on the board and what cos those board members own and or are highly influential within. Okay, we’ll have time to go into detail. Why you took him off the other two now and then we’ll come back and teach sure three ways you can either have the board jump in and and pay for that tv time. Ok, not on your dime. The other one is to have the tv. Underwrite you and i’ll get more into the detail later, and then the other one is to work jointly with each other and bring in a sponsor on your own. Okay, kevin, you wantto you wantto say a little more about the first one working work-life king to you’re looking to your board, working with your board shorts. So as you mentioned, this is relationship building and we all know people who know people, i’m in the local market. It is likely that one of your board members does have a relationship with the television station, maybe economic relationship. Maybe they know someone who’s there, and if they’re already engaged in advertising, buys this more amy’s forte than mine, then you could piggyback on that relationship and they might make sabat in the station and you might leverage that and say what? We’re going to make this a five thousand dollar buy. But the non-profit is going to get advertising on top of that so it can maybe not a condition. But if i do this, then please help this organisation. Does everything we’re talking about today include radio also its all this and or either one cracked. Okay, okay. And if i could jump off of what kevin was saying, i, for example, if somebody on the board had a huge car dealership that the tv station was already gaining thirty, forty thousand dollars a month from, well, guess what i need to make that boardmember exceptionally happy, so when that boardmember calls me says, oh, by the way, i’m involved with his children’s charity. What i want you to do is help underwrite that in the tune of five thousand dollars. You better believe most times more often than not, that tv and radio station will figure out a way how to make that happen. Okay, therefore, that non-profit gets all the advertising for free, as you would also mentioned having the board pay for for for baez. Look at me. I’m already i feel like you guys are the guys you got, like my dad follow-up certified. Yeah. So the other thing what what you could do is you can have them leverage it. And with their media buy, for example, go back to the car dealer. I own a car dealership. I’m coming in. I’m spending thirty thousand dollars. Well, if i go ahead and guarantee you that i’m going to do that for let’s say five months, and i get a high percentage that share, then i will also say well, and in return for just handing you one hundred fifty thousand dollars, you’re going toe hand my non-profit of choice additional five thousand dollars on top of that at no charge, so you can lever to you have on your board and what they own and or have influence around. This is not unlike what we might do if we’re we’re doing our research for grantmaking we’re leveraging the board’s relationship exactly. We’re looking at the board members who are on the foundations that we’ve identified that are that air funding, the type of work we’re trying to fund, and we share that we share a list of board members of those foundations with our own board. Exactly. We’re just leveraging, okay? Um, amy, you had said something earlier about what? What the charity brings to the to the to the to the outlet, sure, beyond our relationship with boardmember in trying to create this relationship that we want to have on our own charity to out, too, to a media outlet, why don’t you say a little more about what, what we should be presenting, okay, so for example, there’s a tremendous amount of brand equity within each non-profit and you better believe that that tv and or radio station wants to partner with those non-profits for example, a stage company, they want access to their patrons, they want access to that brand equity they have in the market, and they also want access to those sponsoring that organization. So in a way that you can leverage or for example, eh? Well, let’s, let’s keep going with that stage company, for example, so so they can leverage that stage cos organization on and worked together on promotions, they also want to get their news anchors out in the market, so what they can do is they can say, okay, well, we’ll come in with a partnership with you, but our anchors are also going to open up every show they’re going to welcome the audience, see, they’re they’re looking for different ways to get out on the market as well and on that market, and so if you give them the ability to leverage their raid equity, they’re on top of okay, kevin. It sounds like the supplies in all sides, media markets, it certainly would and maybe even eat more easily in smaller markets where the community is more tight essentially and we have amy, i work primarily with cultural organization, so they have these physical places they’ve got space is their community centers where people congregate, so when the talent goes out, there might be the opening of a brand new show and it’s a big event in this small community. So the on air talent is a part that community, and they want to show their face and be there so it does scale pretty well, the larger markets, he’ll have large organizations, okay, but another point certainly related is we’re not going to the to the outlets humbly, right, men, we’re going confidently. Amy said, we have we have equity that we can leverage that’s for your benefit, right? I mean, we’re not asking hat in hand now and that’s the one thing that i found that if and when they did, some organizations actually pick up the phone, explain to me what their mission is, what they want to accomplish. It was almost in a it was not. In the way, probably, it should have been almost apologetic. It iss its goal is and i know you don’t have time and and you know why it doesn’t work so well, it doesn’t work that way don’t approach donors that way. I’m sorry to have to ask you, it probably doesn’t merit your time, but could you talk to me? You know, we don’t know what you’re in my spot at three o’clock in the morning. Please be grateful for that, but we don’t talk to funders that way. Way should be confident that we’ve got the equity as you described it. Okay? Tv underwriting. Kevin, can you can you say something about the actually metoo probably speak better than that. I can that’s that’s her background, not mine. Okay, i think you’re referencing probably the third point, which is sort of a a joint relationship between the non-profit and if you don’t have somebody on the board and organization that can help underwrite from the non-profit stand than what you can do is that if somebody came into my office is a general sales manager and said, hey, listen, ah, i don’t have five thousand dollars, i don’t have this, however, what i want to do is i have this kind of equity, teo give you and let’s use that together and go and find that sponsor and or donor together, so it is going to be the non-profit it’s going to be the tv station and then they go out, the tv station now has the ability to engage their anchors and the non-profit and you better believe that those tv and a radio stations want to look like a hero and want to have their involvement in that. So you you’ve provided that, and then the tv station also has a brand new advertisers, right? So if you go out and work together to teo, come up with us, it is no money out the non-profits dahna i mean, you know, budget whatsoever it’s out of the sponsors, and now you’ve created a throwing three pronged relationship that typically will go for years and sort of a side note for what we did at the tv station. They almost got a four to one return on investment. You hand me five thousand dollars, i’m going to give you back close to twenty just tell us what. Tv station you’re referring to, like it’s in the charleston, south carolina market. Let’s. Just put it that way. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping hunters. People be better business people. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s, monte, m o nt y monty taylor. Dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. So i’m sorry i interrupted you anything more you want to say about that? This sort of working together, they will join you a sort of a little joint venture. Well, all i will say is that every single day we all sort of do the same. We’re trying to come up with revenue, we’re trying to meet our budgets, whether you’re non-profit or for-profit and if somebody walked in my door and said, hey, you know what i want to do? I want to help you make money and and and work with you in order to get new advertisers and sponsors, i’m gonna listen to you, and then because i control the inventory, i’m also going toe, then play with you in terms of getting you additional avails additional spots and things and some news coverage. Okay, so what now? I fear my notes from the top where are insufficient? I blended two things together, so there’s one more point, kevin wasn’t there there three things that that amy outlining the beginning and only two that we’ve talked about there through the amy outlined on the getting these basically ads for free, but part of it’s also what? We gonna do with it right? Being very strategic with how you use it was the other part of our session, which is what i’m going to do with his time. Um, in the cultural world, we’re suggesting that people should use this time that we get through any strategies to really promote ticket sales over other items and primarily pro those online. Why do you? Why do you select ticket sales over anything else that a charity might might convey? Cerini on television, we believe are really the ultimate one. Too many channel. When you’re on the internet, you can develop a relationship, you know, people sort of know who you are. You’re signing into things direct mail if you’re already in a not-for-profits database, they know who you are. But when where? On tv or radio it’s essentially an acquisition strategy or branding strategy. So these organizations, these local culture organizations, they may use these buys for branding it’s not going to do that? They’re an acquisition mode, and we want directing to buy tickets for our org’s the ticket really, is that entry into the organization we wouldn’t expect someone to hear and ad and go make a donation to a museum necessarily dahna relationship. They haven’t experienced that museum, but buying that first ticket getting through the door is what starts that process with the sorts of organizations so driving that ticket leverages the free items in acquisition, which generally has sort of with most trouble getting people for the door. Okay, maybe this is also the lowest cost entry point for for acquiring new that’s, right new donors noo noo, your supporters absolutely absolute that that single ticket might not be the ultimate lowest cost. Often, organizations have memberships that, over time would represent a better value, but in the moment it tends to be the lower cost, and some of these places are free and they’re just trying to encourage attendant so it could be a free entrance. We just need to know you’re out there. I know you want to come. Maybe you’re doing a lot of nodding. Did you want to act? No, i’m i’m for once agreeing everything what kevin is saying, okay. Dahna furtive, you work lee, charlotte area. Kevin says everything right, except the things i don’t want. We have a few more minutes left. What have i not ask you about regarding your topic that you want to share with arts and culture organization? So i don’t know there’s something even asked about. But we we just wanna let people know that there are ways to get your message out there on dh. We want our organizations to really think about what they want their customers to dio we get focused on fund-raising gonna focus on membership. We often forget that we need to recharge our donor base. Our member based with new people. We could do that for free and take advantage of it’s fantastic technology that everybody’s engaged in. We want people not to be afraid to go do it when they go to do it. Do it the right way. Use amy strategies. And it sounds like that’s sort of what motivates you around all this work? Absolutely. I explicitly asked, you know what? What do you love about the work that you’re doing? So i get to work with museums, culture organizations, people have fantastic art or, you know, help children learn every single day and my job is to bring software into these organizations so that they can use it to increase all that. So bringing in that first ticket by that first time ticket buyer is the end result of everything that i do, all of that on dh leveraging technology is, well, it’s fantastic to help the children’s touch museum that’s, right? Maybe. How about you share what you love about this work? Well, believe it or not, everything that kevin said, but what i want a message is, is there is an opportunity there, and i think automatically the non-profits think i don’t have the budget i can’t afford to be, i can’t afford a radio. Now, if you’re in the top five ten market, that may be the case. This is probably a mid market toe lower market strategy. However, there is opportunity there, and i have seen it. I’ve worked for twelve plus years with non-profits when i was at the tv station to help them do this, and i think i would just say, be bold, pick up the phone, get a relationship, explain your mission and work together, and you will absolutely reaped the rewards on this and it’s there to happen session that become is make your online ticket sales soar with television and radio for free? I think they’ve shared some outstanding ways of doing that really very simple, common sense, but things that people are not doing, certainly not doing and because they’re not aware. Amy spencer on dh kevin russell, thank you very much for being guest. Thank you, it’s. Been a real pleasure. Thanks. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of bb khan. Twenty twelve. Thanks very much for being with me and my thanks also to the people at blackbaud who helped me be there and do podcasting at their bb con conference. More live listener. Love it’s. Unbelievable. Mexico, sorocaba, brazil, beijing, china. Riverhead, new york. Right at the fork where the with the north and south fork split. Riverhead, new york. Hyattsville, maryland. La jolla, california. Live listener love tto all those cities. I want to spend a couple of minutes talking about the ira charitable roll over. This was just revived in the american taxpayer relief act of twenty twelve, which was passed by congress on january first of twenty thirteen. I love how they can play magic with the dates i actually read the act and on the title page it says legislative day, december thirty first, two thousand twelve so they just make up, you know, they were there on january first, but it was really december thirty first. I love how they could just do that. I wish i could time shift like that. This charitable rollover is really not a rollover. This is the last time i’m going to call it a roll over, right then that was the last time it’s actually a qualified charitable distribution that other word is a misnomer. So i’m not using that anymore and we shouldn’t be using it. But it’s popular it’s the vernacular and what it takes for your donors to do it is you have to be at least seventy and a half years old on the day they make their gift. The ira has to be a traditional aura roth. They have a one hundred thousand dollars per year maximum per person, not per ira that they might own, but per person and the distribution this qualified charitable distribution has to go directly from their ira to your charity. And i’m going to say a lot more about this on my block next week, which means that they’ll be more about it on tony’s take to next week and included in the block post next week eyes going to be a one pager that you can adapt for your own marketing and promotion of this of the qualified charitable distribution say, i’m avoiding saying that word, and so you’ll be able to download that and use that as well. So more about that next week. But just teo remind you, let you know that that ah specific distribution was was revived this week. All right, the rollover was revived next week. I’ll have another bb con interview leveraging your social media data to find advocates, team leaders and hidden vips with casey golden he’s, the ceo of small act, and mark davis, who worked a blackbaud also coming back with me will be our social media scientist, amy sample ward. I’m asking you again, please, pretty please, could you rate and review the showing itunes? I know, i know you don’t have to go back there. Nine thousand podcast listeners i know you don’t have to ever again if you don’t want to, but i’m asking you, please, i’m almost pleading. I am pleading, actually, i would say i’m pleading, would you make the special trip? Would you give me a one through five star rating and and maybe write a short review? But if you don’t want to write the review, just give us a rating so we can reflect the fact that there’s over nine thousand people listening, thank you very much for doing that, wishing you good luck the way performers do around the world. We have left poland were in poland for weeks now we’re in serbia, bosnia, bosnia herzegovina, montenegro and mathos because in serbian, the language of those countries break a leg is slow may nobu so for the week, i’m wittering wishing you slow me. Nobu break a leg in serbian our creative producer she’s embarrassed by it but it’s still clear meyerhoff sam liebowitz is our line producer, and this shows social media is by regina walton of organic social media, the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules, and i very much hope that you’ll be with me next friday one to two p m eastern on talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com i didn’t think they’d do you. Good ending to do. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. E-giving nothing. Cubine hi, i’m donna and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life will answer your questions on divorce, family court, co parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications? Then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight one eight three that’s two one two seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way look forward to serving you! Duitz you’re listening to talking on turn their network at www. Dot talking alternative dot com now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio friday’s one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you fed up with talking points? Rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right spin ideology no reality, in fact, its ideology over in tow. No more it’s, time for the truth. Join me, larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what’s important to you society, politics, business and family. It’s provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to know what’s. Really going on? What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me. Very sharp. Your neo-sage. Tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower radio dot com e every time i was a great place to visit for both. Entertainment and education. Listening tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter. Talking dot com.

119: The Bequesting Brain and Donor Database Dungeon – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Russell James, Ph.D., associate professor and director of graduate studies in charitable financial planning at Texas Tech University

Scott Koegler, editor of Nonprofit Technology News

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.com

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i very much hope that you were with me last week. It would cause me great distress. I couldn’t stand knowing that you had missed thirty four things to know about people. Andrea nierenberg, president of nuremberg consulting group, returned. She had so much simple and valuable easy relationship building advice from october fifth that i invited her back and the last show, which was, of course, two weeks ago, she had thirty four things to know and howto learn them how to preserve them and what to do with them, and her list of thirty for is now on the facebook page and are linked in group also get engaged to amy sample ward are regular social media scientist, social media contributor continued her siri’s on real engagement and building trust through the social networks. October was setting the tone this month. It’s your call to action. Amy is membership director for and ten the non-profit technology network and blog’s for the stanford social innovation review. I want to welcome new listeners. I need a big spike of listeners in october and i hope that you’re still with me in november hoped very much welcome. Welcome to the show this week, it’s, the big, questing brain professor russell james at texas tech university does neuroimaging research to see subjects brains light up when they elect to put a charitable gift in their will. This former plan giving fundraiser and director of the graduate certificate in charitable financial planning has research based advice for your cultivation and recognition of bequest, gift and donordigital baste dungeon scott koegler, the editor of non-profit technology news. Our regular tech contributor wants you to keep your donordigital base secure so nothing escapes. We’ll talk about inappropriate use sql sounds like jargon jail already inference and overloads between the guests on tony’s take to my block this week is charity registration matters. Why compliance with state charity solicitation registration laws is important? If you’re listening and you’re on twitter, you can use the hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us there where monitoring that hashtag in the studio and i want to welcome my guest is russell james he’s, an attorney and phd he’s, an associate professor and the director. Of graduate studies in charitable financial planning at texas tech university, where he also supervises the graduate certificate and charitable financial planning. He has spoken at the f p international conference, the big twelve gift planters association and giving korea we have listeners from korea pretty regularly, actually, he’s presented his research at universities in the u s, spain, germany, the netherlands, ireland, scotland and england, but i noticed not whales, i guess the welsh don’t care for russell james for some reason, the welsh have not invited him, but the irish, scottish and english have he’s, a consultant to the south korean government, around their effort to adopt plant e-giving legislation, he’s been a plan e-giving fundraiser and a college president. Russell james, welcome to the show. Thanks so much, tony. Glad to be here. It’s a pleasure to have you. You’ve had a lot of jobs but a lawyer. Fundraiser, college president now, college professor, you’re you’re having trouble holding jobs? Yeah, that that is an issue. But hopefully i can. Okay, what’s next, the construction trades. Maybe. I don’t know. No, i’ve got ten years. I’m gonna stop. Okay. Well, that’s it you’re set. Okay. Um, our big questing brain. This is really very, very interesting to me. You do? Ah, neuroimaging research. Why did you decide to pursue this? Well, i’ve spent a lot of time in the area of fund-raising a particular plant giving, and there have been a handful of studies done on shared will get e-giving decision making in the scanner, but nothing had been done yet. Looking at decisions for request, a charitable giving. And so that was something new and something i was interested in. And after getting ten years gave me the opportunity to take about a year and a half or two years to learn how to do this neuroimaging so that we could proceed with finding out how the brain works. When you ask people questions about making charitable bequests, this is not a line of research that a non tenured professor would have the luxury of pursuing. Well, it it takes a long time. And since my original background is not in neuroimaging, it takes a fair amount of time to get up to speed with the process. And it helps having a little bit of job security before you start chasing rabbits like this. That’s one. Of the few jobs you have not held is neuroimaging scientist. Thank you. Um, and what was your methodology for this? So the approach was tio have people when they’re in the scanner, they can observe a computer screen, and we could ask them a variety of questions. And what we wanted to do here is we wanted to have questions that were identical but on lee different and whether we were talking about giving money or volunteering or leaving a bequest gift. And since we can’t actually enforce a bequest gift in the scanner, what we did is we ask them if you signed the will in the next three months, what’s the likelihood you might leave request gift to a particular organization. And we used about about twenty eight large charitable organizations on we also ask them about if they were asked in the next three months, what was the likelihood they might give, give money to the same organizations? Or that they might volunteer time to those organizations in the idea being here, we want to see what brain areas are engaged when people are thinking about the probability or thinking about this idea of, well, let’s. See if i was asked if i was finishing a will. How likely is it that i might do this? Okay, and you compare that with a current gift and volunteering, okay? And because you see those as as different methods of support. And so you thought there might be some different segments of the brain that are that are involved exactly. And also because we understand a lot more about current giving and volunteering because people engage in that behavior very frequently, we can observe it a lot. But the quest e-giving is something that people engaged in very rarely oh, and oftentimes not observed. And so we sort of want to compare with the thing that we know about better. Did the volunteer part did that involve boardmember ship buy-in a chance it did not. It was just a generic question of hey, if you were asked the next three months, right, your likelihood that you might volunteer time too. You know, the american cancer society, for example, okay? Because i think it was boardmember ship. I think their brains would have exploded inside your scanner. You have what we want to avoid. You’d have a mess, and plus you you have a dead subject. So it’s no, in these invalid research. Okay. Concerned with their safety. So that’s a that’s cool this other inside a scanner. And does this look like now? I’m just a little curious about the technology. Does this look like an emery that people slide into? And then the screen is above them? Or what does it look like? That’s? Exactly. Right? So they’re inside an m r i it’s a fairly large boardman sheen, but it still they’re sort of locked in there. And before they do this particular experiment, they get used to using the screen, have a couple of buttons that they can use on each hand to respond to questions on. So they sort of get used to and really, you know, they focus on the screen because there’s nothing else to look at. I mean, it’s fairly dark out there. And you have this projected image of the computer screen on that’s the process which seems very weird, but you actually get used to it pretty quickly. Is you’re going through these preliminary process? How did you get volunteers for to be subjects for research like this? Well, for this first for this first group, we just asked folks who were around the university campus so employees graduate students, that sort of thing in the future we’re looking at once we find the results to make sure that those results are also replicable when we are doing with other populations. Ok, i see grad students. I mean, they’re hungry. That right? So for twenty five bucks, they’ll do anything. You know what? They are paid. Yes. Ok. Eso what did you what did you find? I’m interested in what you found across the three different types of, of, of gift of a way of ways of supporting now also, russell, we just have two minutes before our first break. So just, like, sort of tease what? What you found what we found was two different areas that were much more strongly activated for bequest decisions. Van forgiving, volunteering decisions. Those two areas are the call once called the peculiar and once called the lingual gyrus. Now the brick union is something that’s engaged frequently. When people are taking an outside perspective on themselves, sometimes called it’s been called the mind’s eye. And the lingual gyrus is actually a visual or visual ization area. So when you’re dreaming, for example, you will engage the lingual gyrus, and if you have damage to that area, it can eliminate your ability to dream. So we saw these two areas and independently we’ve got some activity that involves people looking back on themselves from an outside perspective and also engaging in visual ization. But what was really exciting is what we found in other studies that simultaneous osili activated both of the same areas that i think is a lot more applicable to this situation where we’re looking at now so i can tell you about those way have time, or we’re going to take a break first. You said the lingual gyrus is the dream center. Is that right? It’s engaged in that engaged okay area. My lingual gyrus was was hyperactive last night, but you’re probably not into interpreting dreams out suppose you dont go that far do don’t go that far. All right, well, we’re going to end with you, then we’re done. No, russell, james will of course stay with us for this break. And i hope that you do too. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? 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Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back were with professor russell james from texas tech, and we’re talking about the requesting brain. We will not be analyzing my dreams. Sorry, but those were disappointed in that, but we will continue. Of course, this is conversation. So this is russell. This is what people sort of their self image and and what you call, sir there, their life story right in the reason we say, that is we looked at some other studies that engaged both of the same areas simultaneously. And one of them, for example, was where they i had older adults in the scanner in their sixties and seventies, and they were shown photographs from across their life from the the different ages of their life. And when they saw those photographs in the ones that they remembered what they were doing, they remembered exactly what was happening in these two areas were much more strongly engaged. And so the idea is that these are areas there is associated with what we would call visualized autobiography and there’s, a variety of other studies that also suggests that your reasonableness of this conclusion so the idea being that when people are thinking about making a charitable request decision they’re actually thinking about this concept of how does this fit in to my life story? It’s almost like they’re riding the final chapter of their autobiography and asking about whether or not this cause or this organization fits with that life story. And so it turns out those are very different questions than we might ask with, say, a current gift issues that are in other context, really important, like what’s the next big project, or how financially financially good is this organization, those things sort of fade into the background on this actually fits with some other research that was just finished last year in a phd dissertation by claire roundly and united kingdom, where she interviewed folks about why they had left money to the organizations that they had identified in their in their state plan. And it turns out that really it was all about their life story, it was about their connection with the cause, or with the organization because of something that had happened to them or to a family member that makes that that connection come together. So this it’s a little bit with an example, one of my friends who’s been planned e-giving after he graduated from law school and had this background training when he would go out and talk to people, he would see that they had all of these tremendous tax advantages that they could take advantage of. Maybe they’ve got qualified money that they want to make a gift and, you know, there’s, a state gift and there’s ways to do that, and he would start by talking about that. And he said i had to learn to stop doing that, that what i needed to do was to start by asking, how were they connected with the organization? What was their life story and how it was it was connected in on so that seems to fit with some of the things that we’re seeing in the scanner here, okay? And that’s pretty widely recognized, i think that it’s it’s, the love of the, the charitable work, whatever it might be feeding people, sheltering, education, spiritual, whatever it is, it’s, it’s, the love of the work that that moves people to include the charity in there in there will absolutely. And i think, it’s the issue here of you know, when we think about this sort of related into some psychology from fifty years ago that talks about how two people deal with it, reminders of their own mortality and a couple of things they do one they tend to avoid those reminders, but the other thing they tend to do is to seek what’s been called symbolic immortality, that’s that something about me that’s goingto live beyond me. So it must be, you know, my name or my values or my my family, and we tend to focus on those things mohr when we’re reminded of our of our own mortality. And so this links in with this old psychological research from for many years ago that talks about people’s desire for symbolic immortality, and it’s actually a form of to use another technical term, a form of autobiographical heroism where we wantto see ourselves as being a significant our lives is being meaningful. And so this, uh, psychological theory fits with what we’re seeing in the scanner, in the sense that people are engaging in this kind of autobiographical thinking when they’re making this kind of you did a very good job there of keeping yourself out of jargon jail by defining that very hard to do, but okay on dh this has some implications for recognition of gift, which will get recognition of gift by will, which will get through this thiss idea of immortality i have to send live listener love got tons of listeners today, it’s incredible! I’m going to recognize first. Seoul korea live listener loves seoul, korea my guest, russell james has consulted with your government as they were trying teo create plan giving legislation. Also in asia, we got tokyo and asahi, japan, and a masked listener in china. I don’t know there’s some kind of furtive activity or it’s blocked by someone else but got a mask listener in china here in the u s spearfish, south dakota. I love that welcome spearfish. You’re not you’re you’re hunting there, but you’re but you’re only hunting fish on dno. No big arms, i guess. Alexandria, louisiana, new bern, north carolina live listener love to all of you in asia and here in the u, s and there’s more to come. Um, visualized autobiography now. So this is russell. This is the way we were perceiving ourselves. This is not this is not rational, right? But this is our our our own self image of ourselves. Well, self image, the difference in an inactive activation here was not taking place in the in the number crunching part of the brain thing wasn’t the purely rational prefrontal cortex this is mme or the you know, the the imagery on the scene oneself and sort of your your own life story or or autobiography, you know, finding some support for some of this earlier research in psychology about people being reminded of their own death kind of lends support to certain results that we see in certain strategies that we see if somebody is pursuing consciously or unconsciously symbolic immortality as part of their estate planning problem that’s, symbolic and what i’d like to be symbolically immortal. Well, i would like to be a very good well, you know, let me tell you about some plan giving opportunities. They’re over there at texas tech and the graduate certificate and channel financial planning to wear. When we look at charities that receive a larger share of their income from the quest sources. Often times, you’ll see charities such as universities that are expected to be around for a very long time, especially giving things like a, uh, an endowed fellowship for a scholarship that that we expect to live on beyond us. And it may be one of the reasons why these organizations or other organizations focused on saving lives, whether finding new cures for for new diseases or other kinds of lifesaving approaches can sometimes be particularly attractive, and if you compare that to other organizations that don’t necessarily focus on raising funds for something that’s going to be permanent, but rather raising funds for something they’re going to do right now and spend right now that’s very attractive for current gifts, but it may not be particularly psychologically attractive force st gifts, because we don’t really want something that’s. Just all of the money is going to be used for a big bang immediately after we die. We’d rather have something that is going to last a long time that maybe our grandkids could come and and say, oh, yes, that’s something that my grandfather set up and still here today. But organizations that might have a more current mission could certainly create a fund or an endowment. Or maybe, ah, part of their mission, that is. Something that’s going to be that is everlasting exactly, and what i would encourage because i know there’s always a tension in those organizations if you set up something that’s permanent, those air funds that you can only use the interest off of, for example, endowment that income off. So what i would suggest is setting up these kinds of permanent giving opportunities exclusively for the quest donors on say, you know you can set up a permanent endowment, you nose let’s say it’s, an animal charity, a permanent endowment that will support, you know, one or two are five animals of whatever the interest of the charity is forever, but that this gift is on ly through request e-giving so you don’t have to worry about cannibalizing your current giving, but yet you give those kind of permanent opportunities that are more psychologically attractive when it comes to charitable bequests. Decisionmaking. Okay, i want to remind listeners. Russell james is an attorney, phd and his associate professor at texas tech university, where he supervises thie graduate certificate in charitable financial planning, and you’ll find information about that at encourage generosity dot com is there also, then the concern russell by the way, do people ever call you james russell? People mess that up all the time. I notice i have not done it once. I’m being scrupulous about not calling you james. I don’t get that with, you know, my name’s, it’s, not generally, not a problem, very black, but i will not. I’m being very careful not to make that mistake with you. Do do smaller organizations now, you think have have a little a bit of a challenge over larger, well established institutions that have been around for decades and generations? Yes, certainly, i think that’s a much bigger challenge when it comes to raising the quest dollars as opposed to raising current dollars, especially if we’ve got this connection where we want something that’s going to last a long time, then we sort of have to overcome that barrier if i’m not even sure the organization itself is going to last a long time. There are some ways to overcome that, though. I mean, you could certainly set up permanent endowments that were, you know, managed by a large corporate trust or bank or something like that so that you could give that that feeling, that sense of permanence that would be there regardless of the sea organization but it’s definitely a barrier. The other thing, though, is that people don’t necessarily have to be attached to a particular organization. They may be attached to a cause and it’s just a matter of finding those people who have that life story connection where it is attached to a cause, if that’s the same cause of your organization on dh trying to make that connection with the life story. And so how would a smaller or newer charity go about doing that? How do you make that connection with the with the person’s life story, based on what you’ve learned? Well, there’s, a couple of different ways to do it. One is obviously if you just know your donors and you know, those those connections and those stories, the other is to remind people of those possibilities by telling stories that give them examples, you know, telling the story about a person who has supported a particular cause been involved with the particular cause and ideally, if you have an example, this may be only for a little bit older organizations. But if you have an example of someone who has left money in a bequest that you could talk about how that person is still having an impact today, even though they passed away a number of talking about the deceased request donor zach plea because that’s that’s, the thing that’s really attractive is if i see that example, not only is an example to me in my behaviour, but it’s a signal that says, hey, these people are still being remembered, they’re still being talked about, and they’re still making an impact and that’s the real message that i think we want to get across. That’s, that’s, symbolic immortality, exactly, and that’s different than what we typically see, which is here’s a story about current donors who have made a plan now that’s fine, but that’s not the same thing as showing that we recognize people who are deceased in there, sir. Still having an impact because that’s, where we get that real example of the symbolic immortality. Excellent, i think that’s really that’s very concrete, valuable advice um, there’s also, you have some advice around recognition based on a person’s longevity of giving, irrespective of of the size of the gift. Certainly so if you think about the goal here, the goal is to make it obvious to the person that putting your organization in their state plan fits with their autobiography. It fits with their life story. So one of the ways that we can remind them of how much they fit their life story fits in with the organization is to consider giving recognition to people, not just for how much they gave this year, but recognition to people for their longevity and giving, especially your older donors who, you know, maybe financially, they have a lot of assets, but not a lot of income, and so they’re not giving us much currently, but recognize them for, you know, reaching a five year club, ten year club, twenty year club, you might even consider recognizing them for their lifetime, giving that this is some amount that you’ve given throughout the line throughout your life and the purpose there, you know, certainly if you’re recognizing him for longevity, that has a nice side benefit on current giving that, you know, you want to keep the street going, of course, but it also is a way of saying, you know, it’s, just like, you know, you get one of these credit cards, and it says members sense, you know what if i’ve got that member since nineteen seventy eight will you know, i’m going to stick with this organization because it’s, just part of who i am, you know, part of my my my autobiography in a sense well, i think charity’s aaron a much stronger place to be. Able to do that if they just remind people, you know, look at how long we’ve been together that that kind of idea, where it makes it clear that the organization that the cause is part of their life story and that that makes it fit in very well when they’re deciding which beneficiaries to use in an estate plan, excellent listeners, i hope you’re taking notes or you’re gonna have to go back and listen to this podcast again. Here i thought, russell james, you know, i figured academic is going to be stuffy, nothing is and nothing is going to apply it’s all going to be a theory, a land, and but we’ll have him on anyway. You know? I’ll make fun of him and things like that, but no, i mean the value, the advice is really valuable. No, i knew this is this is really valuable advice for forgetting bequests. And russell. I never thought you were stuffy. I’m just getting well, i can be if you want me to. Because i also presented academic conference. Yeah, no, i know i left that out of your bio now. No, no, we don’t we don’t want that. Don’t turn. Don’t start turning that on. Keep keep the charming side. All right, so also that this this idea that the organization is going to live beyond me, i know you touched on this a little bit, and i just want to i just wantto see if you have any more advice around how we can get people to recognise that this organization will will live beyond you when when they’re sort of a new organization, we just have about a minute left. Well, one thing to consider is this if we look at the strongest competition and our field for those charitable request dollars, the absolute strongest competition comes from private family foundations, and they’re psychologically very attractive because they have your name on it. They follow your rules, and they could live forever. But keep in mind these very attractive organizations are also new organizations. They’re ones that people create essentially for themselves. So it is possible to set up a scenario where you could emphasize that this fund, for example, is a permanent fund. And, you know, if you feel so compelled, you could even indicate that it’s administered by a, you know, by some other financial institutions or entity. Yet if you if you need to do that, but understand that is the gap. It is easier for a long time organizations, but there’s, some strategies that you can do, which will try teo bridge that gap a bit absolutely excellent. James russell no russell james on attorney, phd, professor at texas tech university and supervises the program and graduate certificate in charitable financial planning at texas tech, and you’ll find that at encouraged generosity. Dot com russell, thank you so much for being a guest. Thanks for having been my pleasure. Thank you, and right now we take a break when we return. It’s, tony’s, take two and then scott koegler, our regular tech contributors with me, with me for donordigital baste dungeon, and i hope you will be too co-branding dick, dick, tooting the good ending, you’re listening to the talking alternate network, waiting to get me thinking. Nothing. Cubine hi, i’m donna and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family court, co parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications? Then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way look forward to serving you! You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz if you have big ideas and an average budget, tune into the way above average. Tony martin. Any non-profit radio ideo. I’m jonah helper from next-gen charity. Welcome back, it’s, time for tony’s take two at roughly thirty two minutes into the hour. My block this week is charity registration matters. Part of my consulting work is doing charity registration, four charities that don’t want to do it themselves. This is registering in every state where you are soliciting donations so it could be a texas charity, and they may be sending email to wisconsin and paper us mail to pennsylvania and that texas charity needs to be registered in wisconsin and pennsylvania. I do that work, and i also wrote a book for charities that want to do it themselves and my block this week is just reminding charities that it’s important teo be in compliance for three reasons you could be embarrassed. There have been charities that are become public and in the headlines. Um for their failure to comply and have a couple examples on the block. Your board members are at risk because their fiduciary steer charity and if you’re not following laws, there’s potential for personal liability, actually among your board members and the irs inquires the year your annual form nine ninety has a couple of questions that i ask about your compliance with thes state laws and that’s a lot. My blogged the post is called charity registration matters. My block is that tony martignetti dot com and that is tony’s take two for friday, november thirtieth, the forty ninth show of the year. Oh, what a pleasure to welcome back scott koegler he’s, the editor of non-profit technology news, which you’ll find it n p tech news dot com he’s, our regular tech contributor. You can follow him on twitter at scott koegler konigstein and i saw today. Scott, you have a beautiful about paige at about dot com you’re in a desert scene there. Looks like you climbed a desert mountain or something. Is that is that photo shopped? That was actually in phoenix a couple years ago. Okay, it was i did. I did perform some photo shop on it, but nothing that you could notice. Hopefully. Really? Well, it looks very noticeable to me. Were you actually in that setting? Where? The photo that the photo purports tohave one that was sitting on that rock you were? I extracted the cactus songs, though, so that they wouldn’t show. Okay. Oh, i see. All right, they were stuck in your leg? Is that why? Okay, we’re talking this month about donordigital baste dungeon there’s a lot of sensitive data in people’s databases isn’t there there is and it’s one of those things that i think i think everybody kind of knows about it, but i think also that it’s it’s also something that is typically beyond the the the understanding of most folks who are engaged in managing a non-profit i mean, it’s pretty technical stuff, you know? Well, you’re going to break it down because you’re a former officers ceo, right? You’re a former chief information off, you’re going to break this down information off, okay, so we’re goingto this maybe typically outside people’s can, but we’re going to get it within their ken great, but what’s in their first of all what we need to be concerned about what kinds of data first? Well, typically it it could be any data. But the most sensitive, of course, is the information about your donors on a sensitive for a whole bunch of reasons one is you really don’t want that information being spread around, too, although we’re all friendly within the non-profit community let’s, face it. Everybody’s competing for the same funds. So you really don’t want that whole list of donors and their history, uh, kind of spread around to somebody else who may be able to make them, you know, make a better appeals, right? Right. So just just just not letting you get out of the bag the names, right? But then you might have ah, dates of birth. You most likely have addresses. Credit card. What? Right? I mean, well, sure, but right now i’m talking about just the competitive nature, but okay, okay. I’m getting getting someone’s eso security number, which i think typically is not part of a donor database, but definitely credit card information. A cz you said, probably date of birth. Certainly addresses. And those kind of things are pretty sensitive. Um, well, i just moved to south carolina, and just before i moved here. Thank goodness they had a break in of the south carolina, um, business and resident database. And there were literally millions of so security numbers and names. I just sucked out of the database and people around the world, man. Now, imagine if that was new york that that would actually have value. Terrible, right? But in north and south korea in south carolina, no that’s, terrible money, there’s. Nobody listening. I don’t think live listener loved, but nobody in south carolina today, so but i will send live. Loved out tio reston, virginia, forest hills, new york where i used to live. I used to live in a hundred street sixty seven thing i used to write. Buy-in forest hills high school and brooklyn, new york all right, we got some local of local live. Listen, love no. Alright that’s. A terrible new yorker joke. I’m sorry, south carolina. I apologized. No it’s critical. So so that’s that’s pretty embarrassing to the government to the state of the government. What they found out wass that if they had installed a twenty five thousand dollars update to their database, they would have they would have prevented the whole thing which cost them something like forty million dollars. Zoho and isn’t the security doesn’t cost anything it’s relative cost and the damage to your reputation and, you know not to mention the damage to your to your constituents. Financial, no stability and abilities, right? Identity theft is a huge issue. Okay, you haven’t ordered that one of the okay on, we’re going to talk through it. You have an article on this subject at p tech news. Dot com let’s talk about something that i’m not sure you can prevent this one, though inappropriate use right by people who are authorized to access data, right? Did you know tony? And you probably didn’t know this because you’re smart guy, that’s, ziga risk the security is not from outside the the organization, but from inside. Well, i can’t say i knew it, but it sounds intuitive because if somebody’s going to do bad acts, you can’t prevent that all the policies and all the procedures, if somebody wants to get around them and they ran inside are already they’re going, they’re going to do it right, right, it’s pretty easy to do. You put a thumb drive in your computer and you copy it out and there you go. Yeah, typically nobody knows who or what happened. Yeah, there are, by the way, uh, software and systems operating systems like windows. Mac. Um, i got tools that can that can actually prevent that. But again, you have to know about it. You have to know. Think about it, then you have to actually install it. Monitor so it’s not a story simple, but the point is that yes, it’s really possible and happens all the time that somebody within the organization absconds with your data and something they shouldn’t. Yeah, that seems like the toughest one because, like i said, if somebody really wants to get it and they’re inside already, i think they will what’s the physical damage is next what’s your concern that well, you know, physical damages is basically if your computer dies or if your hard drive, uh, you know, fails and he didn’t have been appropriate back-up of your data and again that’s one of those things that just happens all the time and people don’t really think too much about it. Everybody thinks about back-up, you know, you get a computer and set up your back-up hopefully, but unless it’s a an automatic function, unless you’re monitoring it and unless you actually test e-giving bringing your back-up data back from the world story asked the retrieval, right? Yeah, you never know if it really works and you know, the day comes when you really need it, you try it. For the very first time ever. And guess what, probably a thirty percent chance that it’s not gonna work, okay? And that and the back-up shouldn’t only be local shouldn’t only be in your office or even in your in your town. Geever right, absolutely should be. You should have in addition to your local back-up you should have offset back-up, and that could be if it’s physical you can have courier service, pick up a a thumb drive or or a hard drive or wherever and physically carry it off site, and they’re also more and more online back-up services that you simply connect to over the internet cloud, right when you and i have talked a lot about the cloud we have right sabat besides that, a lot of databases now are actually stored in the cloud, so you may not actually have a copy of it anywhere physically within your facility. Okay, so wait be sure you know where it is and where the copies are that you are able to get it back when one and if you need it, something that struck me as interesting you. The article talked about sql so well, i’ll give you a break and i’ll bring it up so you can avoid jargon. Jail? Explain what we’ll explain what sql is. Do you know what? I hope you know what sql stands for? I looked it up. Well, actually, it’s irrelevant, you know, it’s. Very relevant. Weary language structured clear language. Yes. Don’t say it’s irrelevant when you don’t know it’s and it’s enormously relevant. Oh, no, i do know, but the okay. All right. Well, it’s, what? Really right? See, what it stands for is the only thing i know about it that’s all i know that’s. So i’m trying to show off. That’s. The only thing is all i know is what the initials with the abbreviation stands for. Okay, what does west culwell metoo tony martignetti okay. Donordigital base. Which hopefully, in sum of money, what you’re actually doing is your you’re performing a sql query. You’re asking the database to find specific information and that, like that query language. You know something and actually in english, it says find data, like, quote tony martignetti in database a, b c that’s. How actually looks like. But those queries can do a lot of things besides find they can actually delete data. They can change day there, they can move data. And so i could perform equity that says, find all records that include tony martignetti and delete them. Okay, that’s so and there’s all kinds of other things. But you but how would somebody who doesn’t have access to the database this is an outsider now, right? How would somebody who doesn’t have access to the database execute thes sql queries? Well, that’s, that’s what hackers do they find vulnerable spots in certain systems on they just do it. Sometimes they just do it because they’re mean and nasty. And sometimes they do it because they want to move your data from where you have it to where they want it. All right, so so it can’t happen, but it’s basically can it comes up with the under the domain of hacking? Okay, i see you don’t visit, right? It’s, not just inside. I think i think to be more damage done to a database if the if the command was to add tony martignetti, that was probably more create more. That would be much more destructive. What we have just like a minute before before break. Or so ok, you have another interesting one inference. This was logical but interesting what’s what’s inference about in front er, otherwise known as social engineering. If i want to find had the president of a company, i’ll call in to just pick up a phone, call the front desk and say what’s the name of the president company and they’ll give it to me and then i can ask for not in the same phone call, okay, right, separate call or other information and over twenty calls, i’ll get everything that i want. Okay, so each individual bit is innocuous, but you put them all together some nefarious actor is doing, and you can have some really private information, right? Right. And it’s pretty easy to come by surprisingly, yeah, ok, well, yeah, because each little pieces is innocent. Okay, we’re going to take a break, and when we come back, scott and i will keep talking about how to keep your your database dungeon secure. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz lorts oppcoll are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people, better business people. Dahna have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. All right, scott koegler we’ve laid out these problems and there’s even more in your article. Att n p tech news. Dot com what are some ways toe? Get around and prevent to really prevent these these problems? It really is tough, tony, because there are so many ways that things could go wrong. So the biggest, biggest thing to do is to make sure that you’re paying attention. Uh, number one, i know where your data is and know that it’s backed up half the fact that you have, uh, valid back-up so you can restore check? Uh, check your employees and your your people that are working and have access to the data. You really may not be able to actually prevent it, but no, i just talked to them about how sensitive this is. Be sure that anybody who has access to get to the data has not disclosure. Uh, language in whatever document signed with them, it won’t protect you won’t actually keep them from doing it. But for a lot of people, it may be enough of a, uh just a warning for them toe not go there. It just makes it a little bit tougher. Okay, what about having different access levels? Certainly. And fortunately, most of the applications that are for sale today for non-profits i already have those kind of things. So you have? Ah, user who is able to look up information and possibly key and donations, but they probably don’t have the ability to look into personal histories. They have the ability to delete records, those kind of things. So for the most part, what kind of function is is built into software that amount profits will will buy in order to run their operations. Okay, um, when? When you do buy software, aren’t there sort of default administrative ieds that hackers might be ableto exploit? Uh, yes. Absolutely. Good points a little about that. Would you please? Sure every application comes with the typically it’s the admin or administrator password with password? Password? Uh, absolute first thing you want to change that, uh, you may want to. If you’re actually in charge of setting it up, you may want to remove that that user after you’ve already set up a different one and also check the list. Of existing user accounts because sometimes there may be some in there that air again set up by default. Good remove any that you you don’t know what they are, you can do that also just kind of during your and during the course of using the system, check the usual to see who’s in there. You may have somebody who was registered inappropriately, either by accident or on purpose. They may have found some way to get into the system and register a high level access the count. There really shouldn’t be there. And the best thing to do is just either restrictor access or just delete them. If they are actually somebody that you want in there, go call you up and say, hey, what happened? And if they’re not good, okay, former employees to write, you might have old account old ieds for former employees, certainly, and that should be covered under the hr policies. And i know a lot of small organizations don’t actually have hr policies that goes along with the non disclosure agreement. The sooner someone is charlyne ated, actually, before they walk out the door before you terminate them, you should remove access. To any of the information that you hold right? Okay, so before you actually have the meeting where they’re ended, where they’re terminated, you wantto cut off their access so that they don’t go back to their office and do something mean, sure, because one of their going to do the most right after the meeting, not before yeah, okay, okay, now, i mean, it sounds underhanded, but its protection, i mean, it’s just basic risk management, okay, what about is this much of a deterrence? If if users know that all they’re i don’t know, maybe a keystroke, logging or all their activity with the databases being logged, is that a deterrent? Um, you know, it’s a return for somebody who thinks that they will be held accountable for somebody who who believed that they could get away with it, they don’t care. So it really comes right down to how trustworthy, ru employees and, you know, what kind of people do you have volunteering? And, um, yeah, it’s tough, and i’m not sure that those kind of things are are effective, but it’s, you know, it’s one of those things that also probably couldn’t hurt, right? Yeah, okay. I mean, it will keep the honest people from crossing the line, right? Like putting a lock on the glass door. Okay, okay, um, the thing i was thinking about is maybe this sort of suggests that doing background checks on employees is valuable. I know their their charities that object to doing that, but this is sort of suggesting that knowing the background of a potential employees could be could be helpful. Absolutely. And i think it depends on what’s at risk if you’re a small charity that, you know, has limited resources and limited funds. And, um and you know what, you’re actually what they’re actually what they have, that risk may not be all that much, and i don’t mean to say that you know, that there’s little at risk, but you made you may not really care about doing background checks, but if you’re a respected organization, i think anyone who is coming to volunteer there appreciates that kind of thing. Scott, we have to leave it. We have to leave it there. You can go. Thank you very much. You can follow him on twitter he’s at scott koegler. And that happens to be his name to another coincidence and he’s, the editor of non-profit technology news scott, thanks so much. Thanks my pleasure. Next week i’ll have one of my interviews from bb con, which was the blackbaud conference i was at about two months ago or so, and also maria simple will be back she’s, the prospect finder, our prospect research contributor. And she’ll be back with maria’s top ten the sights she uses most in her work she’s, our doi and of dirt cheap and free. So you know that you’re not gonna have to spend a lot of money to follow her advice today. There’s a new fund-raising fundamentals, which is my chronicle of philanthropy podcast its new out today the topic is year end fund-raising tips you’ll find it on the chronicle of philanthropy website. You’ll find it on itunes and again. It’s called fund-raising fundamentals. You can listen non-profit radio live our archive. Our archive is on itunes at non-profit radio dot net. From there you can subscribe and listen on the device of your choice at your leisure, wishing you good luck the way performers do around the world were still in czech republic and slovakia zoho mv us. Islam vous break a neck, so i wish you for the week. Islam vous. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. 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