459: 5-Minute Planned Giving Marketing & What’s Fair Game? – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

tony_martignetti_300x300-itunes_image2

This week: 

5-Minute Planned Giving Marketing
The best person to reveal my wildly simple Planned Giving promotion tips is me. (Originally aired 8/18/17)

What’s Fair Game?
Info you find on LinkedIn about a potential donor belongs in your report on the person. What about Facebook and Instagram? What if the tidbit is embarrassing or compromising, but valuable to your org? Should you friend prospects to learn more? Maria Semple walks us through the ethical conundrums. She’s our prospect research contributor and The Prospect Finder. (Also from the 8/18/17 show) 

There’s more at tonymartignetti.com 

402: Your Media Relations Strategy – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

tony_martignetti_300x300-itunes_image2Tony’s guests this week:

Peter Panepento & Antionette Kerr, co-authors of the new book, “Modern Media Relations for Nonprofits.”  

There’s more at tonymartignetti.com 

358: Robertson v. Princeton – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

tony_martignetti_300x300-itunes_image2Tony’s guest this week:

Doug White, author of “Abusing Donor Intent: The Robertson Family’s Epic Lawsuit Against Princeton University.”

There’s more at tonymartignetti.com

353: 5-Minute Marketing For Planned Giving & What’s Fair Game? – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

tony_martignetti_300x300-itunes_image2Tony’s guests this week:

Tony Martignetti, host of Nonprofit Radio & principal at Martignetti Planned Giving Advisors, LLC. 

Also, Maria Semple, our prospect research contributor and The Prospect Finder.

There’s more at tonymartignetti.com

168: The Ethics Of Asking – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

tony_martignetti_300x300-itunes_image2Tony’s guest this week:

Deni Elliott, editor of the book “The Ethics of Asking.”

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.com

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Hello, it’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host. Oh feels good, very good to be back in the studio after three weeks hiatus from the studio. Oh, i hope that you were with me last week. I’d go into ischemia if i learned that you had missed getting to the next level. Lawrence paige nani is the author of the non-profit fund-raising solution based on his work as an executive director and fund-raising consultant, he had proven strategies to get you to the next level of fund-raising revenue this week, it’s the ethics of asking professor denny elliot from the university of south florida edited the book the ethics of asking when have you got an ethical issue in fund-raising and how do you resolve it? How helpful or the professional ethics codes? We’ll talk about examples from her book and take your questions. If you’re listening live, you can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio on tony’s take two five reasons to promote the ira roll over now i’m very pleased to welcome to the show durney elliott she is a director and professor. In the department of journalism and media studies at the university of south florida st petersburg, she holds the point there. Jamison chair in media ethics and press policy and is the campus on buds. She’s written more than one hundred and ninety articles and book chapters. That’s a hell of a lot hyre my bio, this the number of words i’ve written, this is very impressive. She has authored co authored, edited and co edited books, including ethical challenges, building an ethics tool kit, ethics in the first person and the kindness of strangers, philanthropy and higher education. Her writing and her thinking brings her to the show. Professor durney elliot, welcome. Well, thank you. Are you in florida? At the moment? I am yes. Enjoying the winter weather of southern florida. We’ve got the winter weather of southern florida appear in new york practically. Oh, that looks to warm up here. You do a lot of thinking about ethics and and fund-raising, um what? How can we distinguish ethics from long? I’m sorry. How going to sing? Which ethics from law? Law? Legal. Oh, from law. Yeah. You know, that’s an interesting thing. And i decided that i just do a lot of thinking about ethics in my position as department head i’m involved in fund-raising and one way or another to bring some sort of needed resource is into the department, and as i ran too, ethics centers it when a dartmouth and one of the university of montana, sometimes i once felt like a combination of smoke and mirrors. I’m pretty familiar with the day to day in down and dirty part of fund-raising too, so it’s not just a matter of thinking about it, but it’s a matter of thinking about what what one is doing in practice and how it differs from the law is that in philantech p and fund-raising blank with most of the other areas in our lives latto develop law defines a minimal standard that, you know, if you drop below that minimal standard, that you could be held accountable by by statute, generally for your actions. But ethics asked you to think beyond that ethics, asi to think about what’s the right thing to do in a hole. Fear of what ethically permitted actions the law is much narrower, as as you’re saying, there are lots of things that are legal, but wood transgress ah, standard system of ethics, i think yes, sir, my my favorite example is, is just a really straight for everyday example for all of us and that’s it. Now, if you think about about truth telling and lying, you can count pretty much on one hand the situations in which the law prohibits you from lying. You know, you can’t lie on your on your income tax forms and you can’t lie when you’re i know a witness on stay on the stand in court, but but for the most part, we’re pretty honest people. If somebody stopped me on the street and asked me, you know what time it no, it says, according to my my smart phone, i’m going to tell them the truth about the time is i know it’s a baby, i’m going to be truthful with my students and with my friends and colleagues and that’s all in the realm of ethics that no, that goes way beyond what the law requires me to do. Where does morality fit into this? Well, you know that that’s kind of a conversation, probably for maybe even a different kind of radio. Show in that er for more than two thousand years of western moral philosophy, we’ve been thinking systematically about the nature of how it is that people should and should not treat one another. Uh, the word ethics comes from the greek jessica, um, meaning custom or convention, or how we expect people to treat us and the word moral comes from mores again, the latin word for custom or convention and how we expect people to act. And so, you know, i guess what i’m saying is fundamentally there’s really not a difference between least between how i will be using today ethics and the word ethics and the word morals. But that was some people say, oh, well, morals has to do with religion or sex and ethics is what you do in the workplace. I spend a lot of my time trying to integrate our lives and make sure that that i can help people think about how to be the same good person, regardless of what role they happen to have on the moment. And so i tend not to make an arbitrary distinction between morals, morals and ethics. Some professors have over or some philosophers have over the past two thousand years and some haven’t okay, well, when we have those people on there were still living than they can make that distinction, but okay, thank you. And you’re and the topic of the book, the ethics of asking that we’re talking about is, is, uh, your concerns about how fundraisers persuade people to give, right? Yeah, i think that that that when we talk about fund-raising or actually let’s even talk just about the act of giving of donating one’s extra resource is note to create public good as that person sees it, that act is super auditory act it’s ah, it goes beyond what somebody is minimally required to do. And so i think that that when we are working with people who are doing acts that are above and beyond what is minimally respected, explore other assembly expected of folks in private and public life, that there are special considerations on dh special obligations that folks have toward the givers toward the folks who are donating. Okay, um, and we’ll talk about some of those special obligations. How does a person who is a fund-raising professional i know that they are facing something that is an ethical issue. Well, first of all, i think it was the following. Okay, well, first of all of us, everyday face and we generally don’t think about it because we don’t have to, i don’t have to think about it, he’s my example of the stranger asking for time or directions, i don’t have to think about, oh, do i want the light of this person or not? Of course, i’m just going to tell him the truth. And so i think that that’s the only time that ethical issues sort of come to our consciousness or awareness, is when we’re feel like we’re caught between loyalties or caught between expectations are caught between doing something that seems best for our personal self versus doing something that seems better for another, okay, and in those conflicts of loyalties, that could be us as individuals, as you said, or could be, our institutions also conflict, right, right institutions and what may be best for a donor, right? Fundraisers have an interesting complexity of obligations. Ah, fundraisers when my fund-raising role as department chair, for example, i have obligations to the department and to the university as a whole. But at the same time, when i put myself in a position of of trying to extract ueno rie sources from people who don’t, who aren’t required to give them to me or to the university, to the department, i i take on new and special obligations to them as well. All right, we’re going to talk about some of these obligations, et cetera. We take our first break, and when we come back, durney elliot and i will continue talking about the ethics of asking hang in there. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Do you need a business plan that can guide your company’s growth? Seven and seven will help bring the changes you need. Wear small business consultants and we pay attention to the details. You may miss. Our coaching and consultant services are guaranteed to lead toe. Right groat. For your business, call us at nine. One seven eight three, three, four, eight, six zero foreign, no obligation. Free consultation checkout on the website of ww dot covenant seven dot com are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology no reality, in fact, its ideology over in tow. No more it’s time for action. Join me, larry. Shock a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the isaac tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what’s important to you society, politics, business and family. It’s provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who wants a go what’s? Really going on? What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me, larry sharp, your neo-sage. Tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com. For details. That’s. Ivory tower radio. Dot com every tower is a great place to visit for both entertainment and education. Listening. Tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com dahna welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. You should know that we are sponsored by two companies, responded by rally bound, which is peer-to-peer fund-raising for runs, walks and rides and also welcoming new sponsor t brc cost recovery. Getting your money back from phone bill errors and omissions and i have a little more to say about both of them toward the end. Um, denny, you don’t mind if i call you danny wright is not to be professor elliot does it? No, denny is fine. Tony. Thank you. That you edited this book. How how does that work with you? Everybody else does all the rating, and then you just say we need some commas and paragraph breaks. How does that work when you’re oh, i wish i think it would look like actually, after editing some books and writing some books on co authoring some books, i i’ve decided that that actually being sole author of a book is probably the easiest route out of all of those. How does this work? Yeah, well, with editing a book, basically. Ah, the editor, you know, is in charge of the overall theme and the big idea of the book, as you know, an ethics of asking. There are a variety of chapters on different aspects of fund-raising, including plan giving and prospect research and and, uh, friendraising, i think, is what i call it, but the right and so as editor, i was sort of in charge of the overall idea finding the right people, teo, to write or collaborate with me on specific chapters and ah, and then actually, the tough part is getting them to get things done on deadline, and then no writing the writing, rewriting and revising chapters so that there was, you know, kind of a flow to the book so that it feels like the chapters go together even though they were written by different people with different backgrounds and different ideas. Okay, i did get that feeling alright. So that’s your responsibility as the editor, i thought, thea, i thought the company that i thought the book publisher would do that for, you know, that’s you no book publishers don’t do too much these days except actually get them out and with any luck to a little marketing. Okay, um, we’re this fund-raising that we’re talking. About fund-raising is essentially building relationships, so your concerns they’re around how or some of your concerns around how professional fundraisers are going about that. Yeah, you know, and that that happens in so many different levels. I’m thinking, all right, for example, was planned giving that no, i most fundraisers would really like to tap into, uh, into funders who have an opportunity to buckley’s states or, you know, some of substantial, uh, capital or or property, and that is usually brokered by by an external third party. You know, an investor, an attorney, somebody who is both represents the interests of the giving client as well as works with split with potential sites for the gift. And so, you know, hell of what the relationship is between the organization that serves to benefit and the the middleman, the third party there is often a point of conflict prospects. Research can can be a an ethical issue in that i know from, uh, from my days not just at this institution, but other institutions of higher education that i never met with a potential donor without having a whole dossier on that on that donor andi on what are development office had decided the person was capable of giving on much personal information regarding that person, and and i always felt a little uneasy in that it was not clear to me. I mean, it was clear to me that that that as an agent on behalf of the organization, i certainly shouldn’t say mr so and so, you know, i don’t know if you are aware that i’m aware of, you know, of your three divorces, et cetera, et cetera, you know, i mean, i knew better than to do that, but at the same time, i thought, you know, what would he think if he knew that i had all of this information on him and was just not telling him that i had it? So that’s the prospect research level, and then there is the relationship level? Aziz aziz, you know, people give to people, and so the idea of building a relationship with potential givers is an important piece of it. But i think it’s really easy for for potential givers to misunderstand the intentions of a fundraiser, i think it’s easy for fundraisers to move into what i would call a seduction phase and that may or may not be true sexual seduction, but but the but the move from fund-raising where the giver potential giver and the development person are both working with common interests for the organization is a different matter, i think, ethically speaking, than a situation in which the fundraiser is trying to woo the potential. Geever wow, there’s so much there that you just laid out planned giving is the consulting that i do and have done for sixteen years, prospect research way have a regular contributor on the show. We talked about prospect research once a month, maria simple and the relationships you know, that is hitting home because i’ve been a fundraiser for sixteen years and buy-in planned giving you no, you deal with people who are often in their seventies eighties and often we don’t or widowers, um and, you know, sometimes it’s, it’s, it’s hard, i mean, i’ve been, i guess let’s talk about the last of the three things that you just laid out that’s, the one that hits the home it’s almost poignantly for me. Bonem you know, i’ve been in in lunch situations i don’t like to i don’t like to meet prospects over dinner and andi, i know that we’re going to talk about language, and that term prospect is a little off putting to you, and we’ll get to that. So i’ll say so. I’ll adopt your language on dh say i don’t like to meet donorsearch prospect, potential donors over dinner. It’s just something you know, that evening hour just feels like it’s over there over the line from a sow, but i do like to intimate yeah, that’s right? Dinner is more intimate can be and you wantto eliminate any possibilities of that. So always lunch. But i do like doing over meals. I do like meeting latto potential donors over meals and clients over me like that because there’s a shared were sharing, we’re sharing a space were sharing a meal we might depending on the person we might actually be sharing an appetizer sometimes that’s not too often, but sometimes so there’s that sharing of the physical space and the and the activity around at the other physical space also it’s a flow that we all know, we all know that the server is going to bring water and then i’m going, i’m going to always ask for water with no ice because that’s my, you know, so, but once we get that over, then the server is going to leave us with the menus, and we’re gonna have a few minutes and then we know the servers going to come back, and then the stuff is going to bring the starters, and then the servers going toe clear those and bring the entree and we’ll, you know, we’ll have about five minutes or seven minutes or so between the starters and the entree starters ending in the entree. So there’s a there’s a a common understanding of the flow, as well as the sharing of the space and sharing of the meal, right? And what? And actually one of the things that i’m hearing you say in this and if you don’t mind sort of picking this a part of it, but the but there are a couple of things that’s going on that are going on there, that when you’re in a situation in which you’re, you’re asking some buddy to do something that they don’t have to do, which would be a potential donor, that that one of the things that that you’re that you’re doing is setting up a scene that has a comfortable and known flow in ritual, and so the idea is that is that is that you don’t have neither you nor the potential donor have to think about the context, and so it creates comfort and and i’ll say it shared intimacy in the fact that you’re both comfortable with that. Now, if you’re meeting somebody over a meal who is coming at at this from from a different culture where it may be that that the rituals are not quite the same or a little at odds, um, it would be fun and exciting, but it’s going to be a different feel than something where you know, where you’re meeting with somebody from your same culture and where you know that the ritual is is well known. The other thing about meeting over a meal is that there is something no metaphorical and symbolic about the idea of eating, of nourishing one another. If you’re picking up the check, you are certainly nourishing, you know, you’re feeding that that person and that that is, um it is a highly symbolic act of, of nurturing and caretaking and so what you’re what you’re doing is showing the potential donor that that you’re going to take good care of her, you know, in the process of this transaction, you’re also making a very strong point that this is not it’s, not a business meeting. I mean, if i need to sit down with somebody and i know that there’s something difficult to talk about a meal is really not the place to do that well, okay, now, something difficult that requires privacy, right? Although i would say in new york, i know some restaurants that have quiet spots but still might still the potential donor or the donor, but i might even be thanking someone, so it might not be asking someone to consider gift, but i might actually be thanking someone on behalf of the client, but but, yeah, there are situations where i wouldn’t but yeah, and if it’s, if i know it’s gonna be a difficult conversation, then i wouldn’t do it in any public place restaurant otherwise, but i think you can do business. You said it’s, not a business contacts, but i think you can do business over a meal. You don’t think so. Handed business over a meal, but it’s a different but it, but it creates a different kind of of interaction and different kind of relationship. I’m just as an example, if i have a graduate assistant to or a graduate student who is obsessing over her thesis at the moment and this in a tough spot, i’m very likely to take her for a cup of coffee and we’ll sit and have a cup of coffee and talk about the situation, but just the fact that i’ve gotten her, you know, in a company in a comfortable place, i’m nourishing her, giving her, you know, getting her a cup of coffee, and we’re sharing that that sustenance together is going to create kind of an openness and a readiness that is different than if i’m meeting with a student about a problematic grade in my office, you know, there’s that i’m creating a different context, and so when i want a student to sort of relax and the opens and, uh, you know, i have be more ready to listen to what i have to offer. I’m going to feed them something? Yeah, okay, that’s what i’m suggesting you’re doing. With potential donors, yeah, you’re suggesting that i’m duplicitous that i’m no, no, okay, i know it sounds like i’m a little like i’m a little devious, this is no, okay, i mean, i do think that fund-raising get get friendraising gets devious, and i really would like to talk about that specifically, but don’t take it since i’m not a marine, and i know i’ve been called that for some devious, no, but but it sounds like you’re suggesting that some people do it for a different reason than the reasons i’m suggesting i do it. Actually, i’m suggesting that you’ve got all the right instinct. What i’m saying is that this is some of your behavior, so wait say that again, i’m sorry. What say it again? I don’t know what i’m saying is you have all the right instincts, the fundraiser that you want to get the potential donors someplace where the person feels relaxed and comfortable sharing something with you and is getting something from you, which which which automatically that creates a response of giving back? Yeah, that’s the part that i don’t think of the that i’m giving to them really with the organisation’s. Dollars? I’m not the one personally picking up the check, but that’s the part i’m not thinking of that i’m giving to them so they should be giving back. I think this, you know, does this come down to character? Some people might some fundraisers might take people out for meals with that intention with that thought that i’m giving to them, they need to give back so it doesn’t just come down to personal character. How s it? No, i excited. I don’t think so, because and i think and i think that what you’re saying is is that you do it just because you’re a naturally good guy, which i certainly believe you are and that and that that’s a matter of character. Where is people who do this intentionally to manipulate the donor? You know, get the donor glass wine letter, you know, feel, relax and, you know, and so on that maybe there’s something that shows less character in that i would say that every phone great fundraiser has the responsibility to think about how every professional act is perceived and or is likely to be understood by the potential giver that’s very helpful, i think. We have we have just a couple minutes before, before we take another break, i would. We solicited questions from listeners, and we got a bunch. I’m goingto i’m going to throw one at you from that we got from facebook. This is kelly on facebook. You’re in the middle of a capital campaign, and the organization’s plans change. Your executive director thinks the changes are no big deal. Do you notify donors who committed funds to the original plan or follow the executive director’s lead, which would be keep it quiet. Well, first of all, i think that i would wonder about an organization that that changes something significant in a kapin radcampaign midstream that no one hopes that a campaign doesn’t get announced until about fifty percent of the money is raised or pledged, and that no, that that pretty much every every detail has been tested out. Ah, in-kind on a variety of audiences first, but but okay, but so you find yourself in that situation, i think that that that any donor that has made a contribution that if the, uh, thean tense abila donation can’t be met, that there is unethical and probably in most places, a legal obligation to make it clear to the donor how things have changed and obviously moving forward, you need to be honest about where things are now and where they’re going. We’re going to take a break when we come back. Tony’s take two got some live listener love and more conversation about the ethics of asking with durney eliot, stay with us e-giving didn’t think dick tooting good ending things, you’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving get in good. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications? Then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight one eight three that’s two one two seven to one eight one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way look forward to serving you! Hi, i’m ostomel role and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour eleven a m we’re gonna have on shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re going invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a m on talking alternative dot com you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Durney hi, this is claire meyerhoff from the plan giving agency. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio. So glad to be back in the studio because i can send live listener love new york, new york, new bern, north carolina rest in virginia, houston, texas live listener love out to u k beck is checking in we got montreal and palma role maybe i pronounced that very badly, but you’re in quebec if your income back and you’re not in montreal. Yeah, that’s the name that’s the year that yours is the town that i’m trying to pronounce. Welcome, of course we’ve got listeners in china chung ching shanghai ni hao, seoul, korea always checking in always appreciative of korea annual haserot and there’s more live listener love coming tony’s take to my block this week is five reasons to promote the ira roll over now for your donors and potential donors who are seventy and a half years or older. This ira gift opportunity ends on december thirty first. It’s been extended a couple of times, but i wouldn’t bet on congress for any purpose, including charitable giving being extended, so i’m not too optimistic that this would be extended again. So let’s assume i’m assuming with all my clients that it’s going to end on december thirty first. It’s. A very easy way for donors who are the right age to make their year end gift to you. It’s. Very easy to promote, and i’ve got promotion ideas on the block. It’s also easy for donors to execute. They just fill out a simple form that there are a custodian, has. All they need is your organization name, address and tax i d number and that’s, part of what makes it so easy for you to promote. Not a lot of explanation. If you have potential donors who are the right age, i suggest you work the ira e-giving opportunity into your year end fund-raising plan and there’s a lot more detail on that. On my blogged at tony martignetti dot com, that is tony’s. Take two for friday, fifteenth of november, the forty fifth show of this year. Denny, do you mind if we take another listener question? Of course not. This came from booster advisor on twitter. What are your thoughts on hosting fund-raising event for people you don’t know who experienced a tragedy booster advisor, the person maybe thinking about maybe people in the philippines or something like that, any issues around raising money for people who you don’t know who you know of suffered i, uh, you know, and i’m not exactly sure what’s behind the question, so that may take a couple of different stabs at it, i think it’s fine to raise raise funds for people who have experienced trauma, traumatic events, wherever they are in the world, and i i think that that there are often questions about how those funds are being managed both in country as well as in the process of getting them from donors here. So i mean, so assuming that that the management details are worked out, i don’t see a problem with doing that. Uh, so i guess i’m kind of searching for what other? What, what other ethical issues there might be? Okay? You don’t you don’t really see this as that much of ethical. Issues, i mean, that the way the medal i see that the management problem management and legal in terms of management of funds that are intended for charitable purposes, the law has a fair amount to say about that, okay, right, right and well, and i know i’ve done not very popular work on breast cancer charities and how how money money is, well, how it doesn’t support services that are being implied, although maybe not, and not specifically said, and how, uh, breast cancer charity websites make it very easy donate and very difficult to find services. So the, you know, i think that that that one can raise money legitimately for any number of things. But i think that the process of fund-raising encourage an obligation to the potential donors that that money is going to be managed appropriately as the donor’s intended, and that the donors are very clear on what percentage of the money is actually going towards the charity as compared to take administrative cost. Talk about this use of the term prospect which, as i mentioned you, you have you have a chapter in the book devoted to language. What is it about that? Term that turns you often, and you prefer a potential donor. Well, it sounds like mining on, and i think that that when we, when we separate people by a label, whether we call them human subjects, i also do a lot of writing on research ethics and when we refer to people as human subjects that we’re putting them in a class that’s different from, um, no, those of us who are doing the research, those people who are actually doing the work and when we talk about potential people who are potential donors as prospects that that again, we’re setting them off it’s been in the class that that makes it easier to do things to them that we wouldn’t do to our appears for our family members are so sort of objectifies them exactly there no longer people were going that farm, and wei will know that there’s still people on? Yeah, i mean, like i was thinking of your human human subjects, we’re not referring to them as people were medical researchers going them human subjects, but in fund-raising i don’t know, i think, were warmer people over here on the fund-raising side than the medical. Well, you know, and be really honest, a lot of the work that i’ve done on on problems with charities and nonprofits and social service agencies start with the premise, but when people think that that they’re doing good things because they’ve got a really good and that they’re working towards that is raising money for an important cause that that that’s when the warning bell should begin to go off because we knew organizations traditionally don’t take a careful look at charities or fund-raising because, you know, it all sounds like it should be warm and fuzzy and the thing and it’s good people doing good stuff for the good of society. I mean, how many goods can you get in one sentence? Now, i believe that that people who do development work and i believe that people who work in non-profit tend to be pretty good people because they’re not in it for the money, so i didn’t appreciate that, but, you know, but it’s, the whole path to hell is paved with good intentions. That gets to be a problem that when folks think that they’ve got a really important end that are really important, you know? Cause that they’re trying to support sometimes they then the rules just because they know how, how good and important the causes that they’re working for. It’s it’s kind of an ends justify the means argument there’s a line in the movie the big chill that rationalizations are more important than sex try to get through the week without a good rationalization. You’re s o yeah, stretching the rules for a very good cause. When we’re talking, maybe about you mentioned breast cancer or hunger, we owe our working with disabled it’s it’s it seems pretty easy to do right well and and let me know you had said something before break about about whether i was at saying that you’re a devious, which i wasn’t in that case, but but let’s talk about deception for a minute, just because this is one of those areas where in my work over the years with with development folks and, well, fundraisers from from various sectors, not just higher education that excuse me, start that, that this is one of those areas where people think, okay, they’ve got a potential donor, and i’ll just bring an example that that just comes to mind from a capital campaign is a matter of fact. Some some years ago, so there was a ah a ah, a donor potential donor providing a whole lot of money for for a university to have a building built that would carry her her husband’s name, her dead husband’s name. And you know, and that was great. That was all. Everyone agreed completely with that. But this woman also really, really wanted a family fountain in a particular spot on campus. Well, they, uh the that the fundraiser working with the that actually they were more than one fun, but the development people who were working with this potential duitz donor i knew that in the no long term scale of things, that that where this woman one of the fountain was not going to be was not going to last more than about ten years, because if you look down the line, you know, there were other buildings that were going to go up on campus and this pristine spot that she loved and her husband had loved. I was not going to be that christine spot anymore due to the age of the donor the folks at the university this decided that that this particular donor would most probably be long gone by the time you know, the campus changed in a way that would make her unhappy. And so they decided that it was safe just to let this this potential donor believe what she wanted to believe. I find that unethical because, again, this woman is it was doing something that a super aga, torrey it’s something that is that is ethically ideal to use different language, she’s doing something that she doesn’t need to do. And i think that there’s a special obligation of the organization that would take her money, um, to make sure that she knows and really understands everything that she would find relevant to the giving of her gift. Damn, i think i would i don’t know that one that one really shakes me. I i would like to think i would quit over that if i was on that development team, and we were told not to reveal that the fountain isn’t going to last more than ten. Well, but why? I mean, she’ll never know the difference. It’s just wrong you she why tryto be more a little more articulate, that’s just wrong because she’s making a gift under under a set of assumptions and conditions that that the other side knows are false. That’s why it’s it’s almost. I don’t know if it rises to the level of legal fraud in the definition of fraud on statutes, but i know it gets pretty close to me if it does. If it doesn’t exceed that it doesn’t cross that line, i think that’s ah touching on fraudulent well, actually, and the the and the way that it was laid out in this particular situation. I mean, thie the building was going up with the husband’s name on it, and it was going to be a lovely building. And i know a lovely and permanent mark on campus for sure the fountain was by far, you know, a smaller, you know, seemingly incidental, not very important gift, at least from the university’s point of view, and they know they were going to put the fountain in. They just knew that the that the woman thought that the fountain would live on forever. You know what? Where they’re understood it wouldn’t yeah, they know something that the woman doesn’t that’s. That’s that’s ah, meaning in contract terms to me that’s a material term that the organization is omitting now i’m taking it out of the ethical and putting it in the legal. But to me that’s a material term that they’re omitting like to me, that would be the same as you’re renting an apartment and there’s is there’s lead paint on the walls and you don’t reveal that that’s that’s. Okay, gideon, this scenario because it’s the same kind of issue that comes up but it but it’s a very different set of facts. So we have another donor and the the ah ah, the donor, you know, wants to give money for the university, and it understands to be kind of old school and, uh, really doesn’t believe in co ed dormitories. Now, for any number of reasons, the university knows that no, that before long, even though there’s no specific thing on the books right now. But before long, all the all the dorms on the university will be co ed. And so no again does that is that information that has to be given to the the potential donor, you know, it’s it’s a change that that every university is making and some folks, in fact, some people at the particular university i’m thinking of. I said, well, you know, we can’t deal with all of the prejudices of all of our donors. And we can decide what’s relevant for the donor to know and what’s not. We got to go away for a couple of minutes more. Danielle. It stays with us, and i hope that you do, too. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Dahna podcast pleasantries going out to everybody who is listening to the podcast, wherever that might be from whether it’s, itunes or or elsewhere. There’s podcast dot d lots of people listening to the podcast in germany wherever you might be listening to the podcast pleasantries out to you more live listener love pompano beach, florida tustin, california welcome, andrx, les france i hope i did that well, bonsoir we’ve got germany listening live you’ve got kuwait listening live you got the netherlands listening live and i did come back yes live listener love to all our live listeners podcast pleasantries wherever and whenever you might be listening to the time shifted show denny, i’ve got some more, some more this inner questions that came in i got one from this’s from rory asking about corporate branding. How much of a charity’s brand is it ethical to sell? She puts selling quotes to accompany we might be comfortable with logos and branding at fund-raising events. But to corporate logos have a place in, say, university classrooms. Yeah, i think that’s ah, that’s. A really good question. And i would come down to me particularly are now just at ticket from hyre. Education, although i think we’re going extrapolated from that. But i think that the core mission of an organization and i know that’s what sound naive, but i think that that should remain pure in a certain way. That is that one should be able to conductor the mission of the university without having corporate brands on everything associated with the mission. But that is okay, teo, to brand things that air external here’s an example at my university in my department next year, we are starting a new graduate certificate program and food writing and photography. Now we are not selling the sponsorship of that program, but at but we do have an annual food conference of no culinary of communication conference that’s associated with that program that’s open to the community every year, a half day seminar and that we definitely are seeking sponsors for and so if there is, i think, a sense of ancillary sponsorship, but now, but it gets complicated because if we look at breast cancer charities no, it again, a zone area of where i’ve done some particular research that we have situations in which which some breast cancer charities exists because of their, you know, their corporate sponsorships and the relationship between the charity and the corporate sponsor becomes so tight that individual donors are often left out in terms of not understanding the importance of people, giving in a true philanthropic way that is now just to promote the common good. And that sometimes folks in need of service is that air being touted by the charity get left out as well. Have a related question about taking donations from organizations that are not not in direct contradiction to your mission but still have or may be perceived to have negative impact on society, the person asks says there are some cases that are obvious, like cancer charities not taking money from tobacco companies. But what about navigating gray areas on dh like arms manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies? She also suggests oil, oil pipeline companies are there right ones issues around us. Yeah, i think that that again gets problematic and the mawr complicated or society gets the more problematic it is. I do appreciate cancer charities that that no won’t take tobacco money, for example, but at the same time if they take pharmaceutical money from certain pharmaceutical companies, pharmaceutical companies are owned by chemical companies, which released carcinogens into the air. And so the question is of like, well, how far back are you willing to go? And i think that really what it comes down to for many organizations, is that it’s a matter of public perception, that if there’s no, if we can’t cancel charity doesn’t want to take money directly from eddie ah, now an organization that’s known to be cancer causing. But if you take it back one or two generations in terms of of no corporate ownership that nobody knows, i think that that’s not okay, um, i think that, um, that there should be limits in terms of of, um, of no donations that people take, but i think that that needs to be stated, because when we come to individual donors in my experience, uh, fundraisers and charities are quite willing to take money from folks, whether they, you know, just want to give out of the goodness of their heart or whether they’re giving for the tax break or whether they’re giving to, you know, re pay back some private since so so if an organization is going to refuse money on the basis of, uh, of how that money was made. I think that that needs to be stated clearly and transparently. We have to leave it there. Durney eliot, director and professor in the department of journalism in media studies at the university of south florida st petersburg durney thank you so much for me. Yeah. Funnel by your lunch. It’s been a real pleasure. No, no, no, i’m not i’m not putting myself in a compromising situation. Thank you very much. Thank you. Next week, karen wooster is executive director of wreaths across america. They have grown their volunteer support enormously by being hands off and supportive. We’re gonna talk about you’re building that volunteer base. Maria simple is back. She’s, the prospect finder and our prospect research contributor. We’ll talk about the disk assessment tool to figure out whether your potential donors are dominant influencing steady or cautious disc. Personally, i’d like to be all for those. So i wonder if i can manipulate the assessment. Our sponsors rally bound is a sponsor. They make simple, reliable peer-to-peer fund-raising software friends asking friends to give to your cause. You get a discount as a non-profit radio listener you can find them at rally bound dot com or just call and talk to joe mcgee he’s the person who will answer your questions and give you advice on setting up your campaign. And i’ve met their ceo. I’ve told you before shmuley pinson, you can reach them as i said, rally bound dot com or triple eight seven six seven nine zero, seven six welcome to t brc cost recovery our newest sponsor, youself rabinowitz, is ceo there, so we have ah, sponsors yourself wuebben with smelly pinson. Sam labbate liebowitz on the board muzzle toph, i love this. Yo steph! What he does is we’ll go over your past phone bills looking for mistakes, and when he finds those mistakes and he does over ninety percent of the time, then he fights the phone company to get your money back, talking about errors, services you didn’t order and what all you also finds is well above market pricing and gets you the money back and you only pay him if he actually succeeds. If he actually gets cash back, otherwise you don’t pay him. I’ve known yourself for close to ten years and i have many times referred. Friends and clients to him, and i’m very comfortable referring him to you, it’s, tb, r si dot com or two one, two, six, double four, nine, triple xero, which could also be six, four, four, nine thousand, but i like two one two, six, double four, nine triple xero. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is our line producer shows social media is by deborah askanase of community organizer two point oh, and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. This outstanding music you’re hearing is by scott stein. I hope you’re gonna be with me next friday, once, two p m eastern at talking alternative dot com. E-giving denting, tooting, getting dink, dink, dink, dink. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Get in. Cubine are you a female entrepreneur? Ready to break through? Join us at sexy body sassy sol, where women are empowered to ask one received what they truly want in love, life and business. Tune in thursday said. Known eastern time to learn timpson. Juicy secrets from inspiring women and men who, there to define their success, get inspired, stay motivated and defying your version of giant success with sexy body sake. Sold every thursday ad men in new york times on talking alternative that calms. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. You’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Dahna i’m the aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent fund-raising board relations, social media, my guests and i cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio friday’s wanto to eastern talking alternative dot com. Are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications. That’s. The answer. Dahna hyre

024: Ethics with Doug White – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week are:

Doug White, author, “The Nonprofit Challenge: Integrating Ethics Into the Purpose and Promise of Our Nation’s Charities”
Academic Director of George H. Heyman, Jr. Center for Philanthropy and Fundraising at New York University

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://mpgadv.com

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Dahna welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent? Do you feel that your non-profit is left out of the media out of conversations with consultants? You have a home here at tony martignetti non-profit radio, maybe call. Last week, we had the bank of america merrill lynch high net worth study, and my guest was the bank’s study expert claire costello, also last week, enviable e newsletters with the newsletter editor and our show’s technology contributor, scott kegel er, that was last week this week, it’s ethics our i’m really excited, very pleased. My guest is doug white, and doug is the author of the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations. Charities that’s available at amazon dot com doug is with me live in the studio to talk about ethics and the role and the potential of non-profits in our culture on tony’s take two at thirty two minutes after the hour, i’m going to talk about sexism in the workplace based on my most recent blawg post and also give you ah, on ira e-giving reminder, there is an opportunity for two thousand ten remaining. For the rest of this month, we’ll talk about that on tony’s. Take two. After this break, i’ll be joined by professor doug white, and we’re going to be talking about ethics. Stay with us, co-branding think dick tooting getting ding, ding, ding, ding. Duitz you’re listening to the talking, alternate network, get in. Nothing. You could. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio my guest this hour is doug white. Doug is the academic director of new york university’s heimans center for philanthropy and fund-raising, where he also teaches ethics based fund-raising and board governance he’s, also a senior governance consultant for board source. His other books are charity on trial, published by barricade books and the art of planned giving published by wiley. And i’m very pleased that his most recent book, the non-profit challenge, brings him to the studio today. Doug welcome. Thank you, it’s good to be here. The purpose and promise of non-profits our nations, charities. What was the purpose of your book? Maybe it’s a stunning preface, but i’d like to say that i think the charities have the most promise in terms of acting well in our society. They also have the most promise in terms of leading society. At the same time, i think there are a lot of ethical issues and organizational issues, board issues and so forth that impair charitable organizations when they are trying to do the right thing, but oftentimes don’t so they have a large mandate, i think, and this is just my own. Personal feelings that charities are the ethical sector of society, charities were designed primarily and pretty much solely to do good mor so then government or business, the other two sectors now, that doesn’t mean they’re not ethical. That doesn’t mean they’re not good, but we wouldn’t be around if it weren’t for that goodness component, and we really need to take that more seriously than we do let’s start with a common understanding of ethics. What? What is your definition of ethics? Well, it’s, funny, you ask that question because i’m asked that all the time in my classes, and i have to take pains because a lot of the times when i talk about ethics, people will want to sit in the back of the room and they think they’re going to get yelled at because they’re not ethical or they’re not making the right decisions or they’re just not good people and that’s really not how i look at ethics, ethics is really a process, not a result. If tony, you and i can actually say to each other that two men or two people can disagree to good, people can disagree, and we can’t really mean that because we get angry with each other, if we disagree, then we’re really not giving that any credence. What we really need to do is understand each other’s values the process by which we come to an understanding, and if the purpose of ethics were to find agreement, we would have no success whatsoever. The purpose behind ethics is the decision making process it for me anyway, the decision making process that goes into an exploration of our values and waiting those values and so forth, and then coming up with a reason. And i would call it an ethical decision that may be different from yours. After having gone through that same process, i would have to respect that, and you’d have to respect my process and that’s part of that’s an an essential part of the ethical making ethical decision making process respect. And you say in the book that ethics permeates everything. I i stand by that, yes, it permeates everything now doesn’t permeate what you’re gonna have for dinner tonight. That kind of ah decision no s ow when i say everything, i mean everything important, but anything of significance oftentimes involves values, anything that involves values might be bringing up issues that were going to make us defer, and in the process of that, we’re gonna have a problem if we dont have respect, if we don’t look at it as an ethical decision making process and but even in what i do choose to have for dinner or how i feed myself generally, there can very well be value based ethical based decision making in that as part of my my thought process, right? Thank you. You’re so right about that. I was thinking of it, more of let’s say a spouse and husband and wife are going to decide what to have for dinner. That doesn’t matter to anybody else, but what you’re actually pointing out here is that it doesn’t matter if you’re thinking of being if you don’t like meat or something like that on ah larger ethical basis, absolutely it could very well have an impact on that decision again. The subtitle to your book you know the purpose and promise of our nations charities do you think that we have just a minute, a half or so before break? Do you think our nation’s non-profits have lost the public trust. Um, i don’t think they’ve lost it. I think that the public trust is ah, very strong commodity in our country, and we’re very fortunate to have that trust. I think there are people in the united states who are becoming more, they’re becoming more interested in the way charity’s operate. And because charity’s air having showing so much more force in society, the questions are more important than their more more, they’re louder. And so, my my concern is that charities they haven’t so much lost, the trust of the public is they need to. I think i have a better understanding of what that trust means and to respond to it, and the questions being asked are deeper and more insightful. Absolutely, yes, we’re going to take a break. My guest is professor doug white, author of the non-profit challenge. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio stay with me, talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed, i and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam lebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. I really need to take better care of myself. If only i had someone to help me with my lifestyle. I feel like giving up. Is this you mind over matter, health and fitness can help. If you’re expecting an epiphany, chances are it’s not happening. Mind over matter, health and fitness could help you get back on track or start a new life and fitness. Join Joshua margolis, fitness expert at 2 one two eight six five nine to nine xero. Or visit w w w dot mind over matter. N y c dot com you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Geever welcome back to the show, of course. My guest, professor doug white, author of the non-profit challenge. Integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations. Charities don’t ask about the tv show the philanthropist. You talk about a little in the book. Why do you think that failed so stunningly? Well, it certainly had nothing to do with philanthropy that’s, for sure, i think it failed because it was so shallow, and this is one of the problems when we talk about philanthropy and certainly with ethics, is that there’s a way of telling a story and then there’s a way of being in the moment of the actual job, and sometimes when you tell the story and then it goes through several rewrites and several editors network, a major network like nbc, you’re going to lose a lot of the you’re going to lose a lot of the effort. So my feeling is that if you ask, it just became a shallow piece of nothingness. Yeah, i didn’t see much philanthropy in the in the siri’s no, there wasn’t, and this is one of the problems with the mass media. There is such a delusion of the important aspects of things in every area, and this is certainly true in philanthropy to and certainly an ethics that when you get so diluted there’s, no story left except for the one bank stuff that the producers think will be interesting what’s your sense of of why people give to our non-profit sector either time or money or or their talent, i really do think there’s a sense of giving to help other people. I really do believe that some people call that altruism. If you look at the definition of altruism in the dictionary, it couldn’t be because altruism says you cannot have any personal benefit back. And i think a good feeling from having done what you have done is a benefits. So i think in a way, there’s, no way we can be truly altruistic. But i do believe we as humans haven’t have ah, a way to think about other people and their tragedies. Three weeks ago, i would have mentioned haiti as one of the examples. Today i can talk about tucson and the outpouring of of of this indescribable feeling of wanting to reach out and make the world a better place for the people who are suffering. I think that’s a big part of it. I think that’s the major part of some people, will say that taxes play a large rule. I’ve talked to enough accountants and attorneys. You might get that impression, but you mentioned a high net worth study, they think. Exactly the tax tax motivations always low, always low, even among the people. For whom it’s most important it’s still not that important. So there i think that it is that and i don’t think it’s an american characteristic, a lot of people say, isn’t the united states the most generous country in the world and that’s true, because we give a lot of money and so forth. But i don’t think that it’s ah it’s bounded by national borders. I feel like there are people around the world that we don’t have a monopoly on that feeling of what i would call altruism for the moment here s so i think that’s the primary reason people are our philanthropic there are others but i think that’s the primary well, you mentioned the two sound shooting and there was a chronicle of philanthropy opinion piece this past week by diana aviv. Yes, on dh she heard a thesis is that the nonprofit sector has a role to play in sort of healing and, well, maybe not so much in healing. That’s not right in civil discourse in creating a civil discourse, i think that’s really what she was getting at. Do you think there’s ah role there for charities? I think there is no other place for that role then in charities, i think diana of eve was on target. I get to that issue myself at the end of the book, the non-profit challenge by talking about the sectors. And where do we look for this kind of discourse? Because this kind of discourse is the backbone of ethical decision making. It’s the backbone of acting good and dinah aviv is correct. If she had a book length article, i think she would have gotten into some of the details. One of the problems is, is we talk about those in highfalutin terms that we have this ability to do this. We we want to be change makers. There’s ah, a lot of evil in the world and so forth. My concern with that is not so much that we don’t recognize that as a general idea. But how do we get it specific? How do we make that happen? And that article didn’t go there. I’m not saying it should have, but we need to go there’s charities and ask those tough questions because she’s right, the non-profit sector has a tremendous role, a tremendous responsibility. Do you think we’re going to get it from business? I don’t think so, and that isn’t to put down business, but that’s not where we’re going to get that answer is not their role and the government. I mean, i’m not really a big fan of government regulation because it’s always this great big hammer and we’re trying to get a fly dun and the regulations usually don’t do the job. So how is that gonna happen? It’s gonna happen in the ethical decision making process? This is gonna happen in what i call the ethical sector, the non-profit sector on that part on that point, i would say diane is right on target, and we’re going to get teo your four pillars of ethical, the ethical process? Yes, we’re going to get to that. What about the, you know, also very timely in the news, the buffet gates challenge to their to their fellow very ultra high net worth people americans mostly not exclusively, mostly the sort of a backlash that that that creates aa concentration of national priorities in the hands off roughly forty families and mostly in the u s do you do? Do you feel that kind of concentration? Do you? Do you think much of that? That backlash argument? Well, it’s interesting, you ask that question? Because right after Mark zuckerberg became the 57 that was interviewed on that point and that question was asked, and i wish i had with me the quote, because i put this up from time to time when i’m doing my talking, lee, then ask who says this, but basically, is that what you’ve just said? We have to be ah aware of those organizations or people who would usurp government activity, and this is george washington in his farewell address spoke to that very issue because what’s going on right now on guy think that bill gates and warren buffet and other philanthropists are wonderful people and they’re doing wonderful things, but a lot of the question comes from who are they to make the decision? Who are they to say, for example, that charter schools are the best way to go? They may be, i’m not making that argument one way or the other, but your question is were really relying on these people of wealth to make. National decisions and as a result of that, this past year, this growing issue i’ve developed a course at n y u for the masters that i’m teaching next year on public policy and philanthropy and how they intersect because that question is philosophical to the core, and it concerns me a great deal that there’s a lot of wealth concentrated in just a few people, and those people will have an inordinate amount of sway when it comes to public policy. But they have altruism at their roots, don’t they? They do. Did i say this was a black and white question? You’re absolutely correct, tony. They have altruism at their roots and they want to do good for society. They want to do well, they want to do good weaken talk about that distinction in philanthropy, but but this is the issue when it comes to philanthropy in general it’s not all black and white. I’m with doug white, and doug is a professor at the gnu heimans center, also the author of the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations charities don’t you talk some about some stunning disasters that charities have? Suffered the madoff scheme, the smithsonian institution, stevens institute of technology, emory university, the national heritage foundation. What what can we take away from these crises? Well, the first thing i want to just mention is that it’s important to be specific it’s important to be riel a lot of times when we’re going to conferences, as we were talking before the show began, we talk about charity, eh? Or donorsearch being or this guy or that guy, we don’t get specific and a lot of the times what we what we don’t get as a result of that are the real issues that make the problem. And so in my books, i’ve been very clear about wanting to say, ok, the red cross you did bad smithsonian, you did bad you shiva, which is the made off example that i used you should have done this not because these people are bad or these places are bad, but we need the reality is of things because every other organization is itself a real place and things can go wrong. What we need to take out of this process is that a first of all it’s not going to be under the rug any longer. The public is too interested in this. The media are too interested in this, and they’re going to follow this kind. Of a thing up, and if they don’t, i will, you will in the world is just a different place from what it was five, ten years ago. Now, on top of that, what charity’s need to take away from this is that they need to step up to the plate and be riel they can’t hide the fact that their investment share is also the person where the who’s getting the money to invest and taking a fee from that they can’t hide, that they’re going to dip into their endowment as opposed a cz against what their donors wanted to have happen. That is no longer something that’s going to happen behind closed doors and that’s i think what charities they need to see that sunlight and you don’t you don’t think they have these issues top of mind and their processes, they’re not accommodating that sunlight. I do not think they do right now, a lot of them, not all of them, a lot of them. Yeah, we’re generalizing. I don’t mean to put you on spot say, although the entire charitable sector that doesn’t, nothing applies to everything within a within a community you do see? Ah, good number of a good percentage of the charitable sector. Not answering the call to this sunlight. That’s? Correct? Yeah, i think. And that’s that’s the issue for me. Because of all of the organizations in the united states in the all three sectors, charities ought to be the most comedy tow that you hold your charities to quite a high standard effect, the highest of the three absolute sectors of our economy. Yes, i do. And it represents sort of what? Roughly what percentage of our gross gross national product of gross domestic product? I’m not sure which i think they changed it. The gross domestic product is a while back, so i’ll go with that. And i again think it’s somewhere between it’s fairly large ten to twelve percent. Well, no one really knows. I think maybe you do, but i think it’s somewhere on ten to twelve or maybe fifteen percent of our gross domestic product, which is not a small amount of change now, considerably. No, i think that product is roughly fifteen trillion dollars. Okay, roughly a trillion and a half dollars. Yeah. You you talk about the four pillars of ethics and i want to start toe, get into sort of the substance of the ethics process that you’re you’re advocating? Really? Why don’t you want to tell the audience? What are those four pillars? Well, wait, talk about these words have been known to go we’re talking about how we say phrases and they’re kind of airy and we don’t get down to the details of them. The phrase you had it a minute ago that you’re going to show me the out of the book the phrase for example, transparency, you know, just take a look at that the phrase transfer their word transparency, the word are the phrased disclosure, disclosure, conflict of interest, those air all words that we use nowadays they’re buzzwords we talk about them say, well, we we are we want to be more we want tohave disclosure, we want to be sure we don’t have a conflict of interest, we want to be transparent, and then everybody dances around that. But what does that mean? And so not only are they what i think are the four pillars of of ethics because they asked the charity’s themselves to do the work to get the word out. To get the honesty out to get the ability for anybody else to find out that honesty, i talked to a charity in washington, d c an awful charity who felt that it was doing everything it should because it files nine nineties, as if they should be rewarded for following the law and that’s just the wrong standard to use, especially for a chortle that’s just getting by. That’s just getting by, you know, that’s not anything to brag about, but what we’re so that being understood, what is that level? Where do we go, how do we become transparent? What does that mean? What do we tell people? How do we let them know what that is? Well, today, it’s, easier than ever. We have websites. Why don’t people have their own nine nineties on their websites? Why do they not only not have them, but if they did, why would they only go back three years? Oh, well, that’s, because we’re required to only go back three years. That’s, not the answer. We’re going tow. We’re going to take a break, and when i return, of course, doug white will stay with us, actually, right after the break, it’s ah, tony’s take to doug white is going to stay with us. We’re going to talk in detail about the four pillars of ethics on the fourth one that didn’t, but doug doug did not mention yet is oversight. We’ll talk in detail about those and get into that process of ethical decision making. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting do you want to enhance your company’s web presence with an eye catching and unique website design? Would you like to incorporate professional video marketing mobile marketing into your organization’s marketing campaign? Mission one on one media offers a unique marketing experience that will set you apart from your competitors, magnify your brand exposure and enhance your current marketing efforts. Their services include video production and editing, web design, graphic design photography, social media management and now introducing mobile marketing. Their motto is. We do whatever it takes to make our clients happy contact them today. Admission one one media dot com hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent time for tony’s take two on today’s show. First thing i’d like to spend a moment with is workplace sexism. I blogged about this in november, and then again just about two weeks ago or so, confirming what i had asked in november, which was, does sexism still exist in the workplace? And i was embarrassed to say in the in the second post, just two weeks ago that i didn’t realize yes, it does. I shouldn’t have even bothered in november asking the question i should have just gone right to the declarative and said sexism does exist in the workplace and the comments that i’m getting on that the most recent post just ten days or two weeks ago some very poignant stories, so suggesting it’s something you might want to take a look at management and boards just ignoring federal law that prevents is supposed to be preventing ah, create sanctions for sex discrimination organization policies being ignored and even to the point of one woman telling story about her daughter, who is a professional fundraiser who ended up quitting her. Job because she was being set up on dates with donors, sons, those comments and all the other stories that are attached to that post you’ll find on my block at m p g a d v dot com in the name of the post is sexism confirmed also want to share with you last minute e-giving opportunity for i r a gift. So under the tax relief act, which president obama signed just a couple of weeks ago, there is a provisioned for donors to make two thousand ten ira gif ts this month on ly the month of january and what you might do is look to donors who have multiyear pledges who may want to accelerate those pledges, and they could do that in the month of january by making a gift that counts toward there mandatory required distribution of their ira counts toward two thousand ten, and then again this year, they could make another gift, which counts there toward their two thousand eleven mandatory required distribution. So if you have those donors who maybe are willing to help you with a two thousand ten shortfall in your fund-raising or as i said, maybe they have multiyear pledges and they’d like to accelerate those pledge payments. Those would be good prospects to talk to you for this opportunity it expires at the end of this month the counting the gift for the two thousand ten is on ly good for the month of january, then for all the rest of two thousand eleven, the ira possibility remains, but it would only be for two thousand eleven minimum required distributions, and you’ll see that block post that’s called gift possibility remains for two thousand ten ira rollovers and that’s also on my block at mpg a d v dot com i’m with doug white, doug white is with us, and we’re talking about his book the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations charities, you’ll find his book as well as his other two at amazon dot com and right before the break, doug, we were just talking about your four pillars of ethics just wanted just quickly name them, and we’re going, we’re going toe talk about them in a little detail, but if you just name the four pillars, okay, we have, i think, disclosure and transparency, which are quite close to another and we have a conflict of interest, and the fourth one is oversight on dh those for all our very subjective terms. They don’t have black and white ideas, but i love that you call them pillars. Killers are not mushy, subjective relative things there’s are typically granted or concrete and their towering that’s kind of what you call them pillars. I think you’re absolutely correct and looking at that because i feel that they are the pillars, without which charity will crumble. Would you mind reading this paragraph from doug’s goingto read one paragraph from page one fifty three of his books book, talking about these pillars. Four concepts form the backbone of ethics that non-profit organizations the one we just discussed, actually, charities would do well to structure all of their activities around these practices. Every decision should begin by searching for a fidelity to those words. The people making decisions should ask themselves whether they would do the same thing if they knew their actions would be disclosed to the public to ignore the growing level of interest the public and the regulators have in charities or worse to fight them is a loser. Idea. Akin to automobile manufacture. Emperors fighting the requirement to install air bags in all cars. Doug, how do we ensure fidelity to those four pillars? We don’t we can only hope we can only strive, and in order for that to happen, we have to have a humility about who we are and what we’re trying to accomplish. I can look at examples very small, for example is the smithsonian institution who did not bring that kind of humility to his job at the smithsonian. Now you’re not going to hear a lot of people say that because i love the smithsonian and we don’t liketo talk that way about our own, but until we do, i think we need to be honest and until we are that we’re goingto allow people to not be human humble, to not be honest with themselves, and then we won’t be able to accomplish this objective. I’m not sure we’ll ever accomplish it because it is it’s a high standard, but i think we need to have people who know that the non-profit sectors different from business and government is not business light it’s not like another way of doing business non-profits have a special place in society. They have a special place in our hearts, they have a special place in history, you know what i mean? By history’s going back thousands of years durney the idea that we don’t have an extra moral purpose as humans when we run these organizations which are designed solely to help society in a way that neither business nor government can do. The idea is so profound that we need to call upon the best of who we are as human beings. And part of that is an examination would be those four pillars. And in order for those toe really stand as pillars, we have to take them seriously. We have to examine them. We have to examine them in terms of the in the context of the organizations that were running as as well as who we are, ours leaders off those organizations and nothing can be taken for granted. One of the issues with with ethics in the decision making process is not to put yourself into a different place from everyone else. This is what bill aramony did at the united way and that’s why everything went downhill during the late eighties and early nineties. Now the united way of america. Back then, it was the united way of america is a wonderful organization, but he decided he was better than anyone else in the organization. He decided that it would be that the organization would do certain things, and he decided how some money would be run and that’s not the way to do it. So we need fewer bill aramony’s, despite how wonderful a job he did until that time to bring the organization to a very high place. We can’t have the larry smalls of the world running charities. Larry smalls, please tell us at the smithsonian, i’m sorry, the smithsonian, we can’t have that not because he’s a bad guy, he’s a good guy, but he didn’t get the non-profit ethos lost his humility. He lost his humility here. He didn’t have it one of the other. The point is we can’t say it’s, okay for me if it’s not okay for you that’s part of the ethical decision making process and charities have to embrace that they have to embrace that wholeheartedly. That’s another part of what i love about the quote that i asked you to read, which is, would you do the same thing if you knew that everybody was looking at you? Absolutely. And now some people ask that question and ethics and say, well, you have to be aware of what the new york times might say on its front page tomorrow. Well, you do, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you wouldn’t do it. Question is, can you defend it? Can you honestly say that this was the right thing? You know, the newspaper might get it wrong. The general feeling of the public might be wrong. You would have to stand by your values, but you can’t do it by just saying i’m right and you’re wrong. See a lot of people i know in this town anyway, okay? And then why you think that bush should not have gone to war with iraq? Ok? They think they should not have gone to war with iraq. I say, look, let’s agree with that. But if bush president bush had done one thing, he would have been a lot better off if he had been honest about why we had gone to iraq. He could have said, i know there aren’t any weapons of mass destruction, but i feel that saddam hussein’s a really bad guy and we got to get rid of a lot of people. Would have disagreed with him. That’s okay, but at least he would have been honest. And he would have said, these are my values. These are the values i think the united states ought to bring into this process. That’s what we need tohave we can’t always go around saying, oh, i hope i do something that everybody will agree with, and if i don’t, i’m just not going to tell anybody and hope that nobody understands. We’ve got to be clear about being honest about what we do. An example you you spend some pages on in the book is the metropolitan museum of art, whether they should i have put our scent art to las vegas on loan to the bellagio. So now he’s world class art museum talking about world class art in one of the richest places in the world. Las vegas why don’t you take the story from there? Actually, that was the boston museum. It was boston museum in new york. Centric course. Everything happens in new york. I’m surprised supplies las vegas is not new york. Ok, sorry. But i used that example not to say anything bad about the organization, but to show the challenges that come up in governance, and this is part of oversight and part of what governance ought to be at boards source. They teach clients about governance as leadership and all of the questions that come up. But let’s say you run an organization like the metropolitan well, you can use that they have wonderful pieces of our it could’ve taken out to las vegas, this den of iniquity, this is this is culture. We can’t have that we can’t be lending our name into this this place and a lot of places would let it go at that. But then this museum up in boston said, well, what are the pros and cons? What are our values and what that might be g would it be better for more people to see this art? Would that be a good thing? And the answer to that question is yes would be associated with las vegas. We a bad thing? I mean, this is boston after becoming like, my goodness, that would be a terrible thing. See away the right versus the right. Rushworth kidder, one of my heroes when it comes to ethical decision making, who runs? In a non-profit in maine talks about right versus right all the time because if we’re talking ethical decision making, we’re talking about ethical dilemmas. We’re not talking about the obvious right versus the obvious wrong. We’re talking about a dilemma right versus right? And in that particular example, there were two rights. One is we’re going to have a problem with our image, the second oneness, and confronts it in conflicts with it. And that is the idea that more people will be able to see our our work, and they ended up doing the deal they did, and they took some criticism for it. They did, but you looked at their process and and it’s outcome the process was key and to try to avoid criticism, it’s a loser’s game and it’s not even it’s, not even a worthwhile goal. Who would want to live in a world where everybody agrees all the time it would take away ah chunk of our humanity that i don’t think we’d be a world a tte leased the one that i would recognize without it. So forget the idea that we’re always going to agree, in fact, when i go into a room and i learned this when i worked in politics in the early seventies, the fellow said. Well, i could go into the room full of people who agree with me, and i could go into a room full of people who disagree with me, which where should i go? I said, we’ll go with it where they love you, he said, no, i go into the room that they disagree with me because that can change their minds. I can talk to them. I can hear what they have to say, and i’ve never forgotten that that’s part of the idea here, i want to get into your the process that you recommend that you advocate but let’s talk so a little in leading up to that more the detail of the four pillars you said disclosure and transparency very close, but you do make a distinction in the book. Why don’t you make that first? Well, i think that disclosure is the ability for people for a charity to teo wth the idea of a charity allowing people to see the what’s going on. We have to disclose things, aunt, i’ll come back to that in a second, with an example, transparency from my perspective is the ease that we allow the public to see are what we disclose so there’s a distinction there, but the reason i make the distinction is we’re saying those two words all the time as if they were different and they are different, but we never really make that distinction. We’re always talking about it is that it goes away. Let me give you an example of disclosure. I sat on in nineteen ninety five for the dahna philantech protection act, the texas case and we we got this bill passed and a required disclosure with gifts that were planned gifts that we’re co mingled and we’re really happy the sec wanted this for twenty years now is a federal law. A lot of charities didn’t like it, but i was happy, so they said there needs to be disclosure. Great. So the next day, after i had testified to this and after it had gotten past, i called the head of the sec, barry barbash and i said, oh, gosh, we’ve got to ask this question what does disclosure mean? What’s the definition he said that’s up to you, that’s up to you, you have to do that for yourself, and actually the law says reasonable disclosure reasonable, which is even, you know, so, you know, the issue is we are responsible for deciding that and so and it can’t be run by a bunch of lawyers because after that gift annuity disclosure statements were fifty pages long, they were all pretty much filled with legalese. Do you know what barry barbash said when i said, i’m having difficulty with your answer, he said to me, if a seventy five year old person he said, lady, so i’ll just say that who doesn’t understand finances doesn’t understand what you’re telling her in this disclosure. It’s not disclosing anything now i think of that that’s profound it’s not disclosing anything, you could throw a bunch of stuff out, and if it doesn’t tell the person anything it’s not disclosing anything, is it fair to say that you envision you see it transparency as sort of the mindset of openness and then disclosure as the process the practice of disclosing yes, yes, ok, and that mindset, the transparency being reaching out to the public, the donor of the public and saying this is the way we’re going to make it easier for you to understand what we’re doing just in the thirty seconds or so. What we have before a break, let’s, talk about avoidance of conflict of interest. Oh, yes, a third pillar, thirty seconds on that. Well, i i think conflict of interest needs to be disclosed. Okay, bringing those two ideas together. It’s not always going to be avoided, but it should be disclosed, and the issue isn’t so much that it always that it exists. Sometimes we can talk about this later, but that is not disclosed. My guest is doug white he’s, the author of the non-profit challenge. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio stay with us. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future. You dream of. Two one to seven to one eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna i really need to take better care of myself. If only i had someone to help me with my lifestyle. I feel like giving up. Is this you mind over matter, health and fitness can help. If you’re expecting an epiphany, chances are it’s not happening. Mind over matter, health and fitness could help you get back on track or start a new life and fitness. Join Joshua margolis, fitness expert at 2 one two eight six five nine to nine xero. Or visit w w w died. Mind over matter. Y si dot com. Do you want to enhance your company’s web presence with an eye catching and unique website design? Would you like to incorporate professional video marketing mobile marketing into your organization’s marketing campaign? Mission one on one media offers a unique marketing experience that will set you apart from your competitors, magnify your brand exposure and enhance your current marketing efforts. Their services include video production and editing, web design, graphic design photography, social media management and now introducing mobile marketing. Their motto is. We do whatever it takes to make our clients happy. Contact them today. Admission. Wanna one media dot com? Talking. Metoo welcome back to the show conversation with doug white. We’re talking about ethics and his book the non-profit challenge and doug were at the fourth pillar of of ethics, which is oversight. Don’t you say a little about oversight? Oversight is pretty much the domain off of boards, and i think the board’s oftentimes don’t understand the seriousness of their job. They are the legal backstop oven organization, they are in charge not only of keeping it safe financially and otherwise legally, but also they’re in charge of its leadership. They’re in charge of looking toward its future, they’re in charge of that charity, and so if they don’t have oversight on dhe mentioned earlier with the united way with stevens and with all of these organizations where there have been problems ah lot of that could be traced back to the lack of oversight on the part of the board or the lack of oversight on the part of the senior staff. So the board has tohave a sense of seeing the organization of overseeing its activities. It has to take a seriousness in that approach because they are who they are, they’re they’re the people who are responsible. For this organization they cannot allow, no matter how good, no matter how smart a ceo or us on executive director might be to just work alone without any sense of, uh, answering to the board. So the board has to take that very, very seriously, and that will mean doesn’t matter that they pay, you know, one hundred dollars a supposed one hundred fifty dollars, for ah lunch or something for the staff or whatever. I’m talking about the big picture and people will say, of course, you know, boards are very interesting the big picture there go cardio overseeing what’s going on, but that’s not true look at yeshiva, who lost all of that money and made off the payoff scandal. That is a pretty big picture, but people say, well, i trust this other person who’s on the board or i trust the person who’s investing the money. Nobody looked a trading slips because there weren’t any trading slips that was too much of a detail, so who’s going to look at it? Well, the board should ask about that. Even if you’re not, you don’t have a lot of financial acumen or investing acumen. You should ask that one of the people asked on the harvard boards said, but if we got into all of these alternative strategies, which reduced liquidity, but increase the value of the portfolio and we then got into a situation where we didn’t have that liquidity, where would we get it? Because you know what the students need, that this is what keeps the place going that was asked by someone who wasn’t even part of the investment process, so it takes i think, for the oversight of people who aren’t the expert but who care and that we’re smart and that responsibility is won’t make this explicit, of course, is a legal responsibility that board members have, yes, the under the laws of fiduciary duty, right? I heard that there of the nine million board chair board occupancies in the united states, four and a half million were vacant a couple of years ago because there was so much difficulty getting board members on the charities. My question is, i’m worried about the four and a half that are not vacant, you know, the ones that are filled by people who don’t know what they’re doing don’t just in the few minutes we have left. Let’s, bring these four pillars together into ah, what you advocate is the process of ethical decision making. Yes, there’s. No real blueprint for this because every organization is going to be different and it’s a subjective process. But the question here is, do we know what the big questions that we have to face are, for example, let’s, let’s. Look at investing, for example, the are investment portfolio is x do we want to have? What kind of a mix are we going to become more risky? Do we want to become more conservative? There’s? No right answer within that. But when we get there, when we answer that question based on other values, then we want to make sure that the investment makes is correct. And if we get out of that, we want to know. And so there has to be a process to know. And there has to be a process to ask the question to begin with. So you you know, you walk in there, you say here’s a slate, a blank slate, one of the large questions, and i wouldn’t recommend a charity start. Simple. Take the five largest. Questions they can imagine asking on saying, how are they going to answer it and then go deep and deep, deep down to the details of that process using the ethical decision making process? I’m not going to accept myself because i’m special. I’m going to get a cz much information as i possibly can in the process of making a decision not just the information i want but everything, and then i’m going to make a decision, but i’m going to keep my mind open after that that’s all part of the guideline of making an ethical decision maker of the ethical decision making process. But i would say that charities don’t do this, they do not do this. My guest has been dug white, and he is assistant professor at the and then you new york university heimans center. His book is the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations. Charities. You should read this book there’s considerably more detail, of course, that we were able to conserve a kidder. Consider in just an hour, doug. Thank you very much for joining me in the studio. It’s. My pleasure, tony it’s. Been a pleasure having you next week. Savvy strategies to save you from a sexism scene policies you need in place to protect your employees and your non-profit i’m so concerned about sexism in the workplace that we’re going to start devoting cem showtime to it, this will be just one segment. There will be another show in the future devoted to it next week, talking about these strategies to save yourself and your organisation from an embarrassing situation around sexism. My guest will be hr consultant karen bradunas and also next week planned giving newsletters tips to make them punchy and interesting so that your donors actually read them. My guest will be clear meyerhoff she’s, a marketing consultant and also the creative producer to this show, you could get our insider alerts, and i hope you will like us on the facebook page. It’s, of course. Facebook dot com tony martignetti non-profit radio click on the like button. The creative producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is claire meyerhoff, our line producer on the owner of talking alternative broadcasting. Sam liebowitz and our social media is by regina walton of organic social media. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio always. With mid size and small non-profits in mind, of course, the tagline. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I hope you join me next friday for those guests. I just mentioned one p m eastern here on talking alternative, which you always find at talking alternative dot com. E-giving ding, ding, ding, ding. You’re listening to the talking alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. Duitz are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? 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