Tony’s guest this week:
Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.
There’s more at tonymartignetti.com
Tony’s guest this week:
Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.
There’s more at tonymartignetti.com
Tony’s guests this week:
Ann Kayman, founder and CEO of New York Grant Company
Gene Takagi, principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group
Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.comView Full Transcript
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Durney no hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host it’s, so good to be back in the studio. I’ve been away with two pre recorded shows in a week, so good to be back here, it’s may tenth, twenty thirteen oh, i hope you’re with me last week, i’d suffer pseudo member nous kel itis if i came to learn that you had missed small non-profits raise more money consultant and author amy eisenstein returned last week. She’s, the principal of tripoint fund-raising and it took her two years to write her new book, raising more with less. We learned that that time was well spent still two years i don’t know this week the money is out there and kayman founder and ceo of new york grant money is a treasure of valuable information about grants, discounts, rebates and other money incentives throughout the country that get triggered when you re new release, move, expand, renovate, we’ll talk about other georgia triggers as well, investing energy savings, she explains what’s out there and how to find it also the ppa latto paul, have you seen? Dan pallotti’s viral video from ted it’s called the way we think about charity is dead wrong our legal contributor jean takagi principle of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo-sage san francisco shares his perspective on how we got here and what would need to change and should it to achieve pallotti’s vision of amore free market charity sector between the guests on tony’s take two, i’m doing stand up comedy tonight in new york city, and maybe if you’re listening live and local, maybe you could make it my pleasure. Now, to welcome to the studio and kayman founder and ceo of new york chadband company, they worked to obtain economic grants and incentives for clients in the new york metro area and nationally. Previously, she served in the new york city mayoral administrations of rudolph giuliani and michael bloomberg as head of business development for the new york city economic development corporation. She’s, a former dancer, she was doing radio at twelve years old. It’s my pleasure to welcome to the show and kayman and welcome. Thank you, tony it’s a joy to be here a joy thank you. Most people just say it’s like pleasure refund, but joy that’s terrific. Why were you doing radio at twelve years old? What was that about? I guess i’m a born ham. I came from a family of hams. If that’s still a word that’s used today. Sure. It’s couples fashion. Okay, so you’re not kosher, but what were you doing? A radio it at twelve years old, i got invited to to write and produce and be star of home run write a show in grammar school. And it was just a random opportunity in alexandria, virginia, which is where i grew up. And ah, you know, i just gravitated toward that stuff because of my background and family and interest in all that stuff and things having to do with performing. What was your show about twelve years old? I’m sure it was incredibly insightful and thoughtful and you don’t remember. I don’t remember. Okay, all right, let’s talk about some grants and some other opportunity. I don’t want to limit it to grantspace talk about economic incentives. Cool for for our audience, small and midsize charities. Why are these things made available? The idea is that there needs to be some stimulus at all times. To incentivize organisations to grow and invest and hyre create jobs and really contribute to the economic well being of an area or state a country. And so programs have evolved and exist just everywhere everywhere on the planet, actually to help encourage activity that will contribute to the economy of any given jurisdiction. Okay, so we could be talking about city state this’s way also talking federal level opportunities incentives? Yes, most definitely every layer of government. Rnc va ble has something to offer on the economic menu, if you will, to encourage organizations could be for-profit not-for-profits combination, ah, to invest, to grow to hyre to do all the kinds of good things that really contribute to the economic base, the tax base and the you know, the economic opportunities for people, wherever they might be. On the charitable side are their incentives mohr for certain types of charitable work than other types of charitable work. Not really. I mean, where if you look at the landscape out there of who’s giving and who’s getting, you see activity in social services, obviously elder care charter schools, but also theater, dance, performing, arts, culture definitely as well as health. Services and other charitable and religious for example, institutions, you know, you name it, whatever is on the spectrum on the knot in the nonprofit world there some e-giving thank god going on because organizations depend for their lifeblood on e-giving not only by private donors, but also by public donors. Yeah, and i don’t think there’s great awareness that these programs are available at all different levels of government. Exactly that’s why i have a job. I mean, we started our firm eleven years ago with the idea to bridge that gap because there were a lot of things that are were on the economic menu by federal, state and local government. I mean, we’re here in new york city, but we’re not unique in terms of jurisdictions offering stuff, and there was very little in the way of know how about what was available, how to go get it, how to cut through the red tape, deal with the bureaucracy and really maximize somebody’s return while minimizing their hassle. So our team based here in manhattan is designed tio work through that we we navigate the mazes we say of these economic programs for all kinds of organizations. Large and small. And you have dahna a little acronym for for what triggers these incentives rhyme your r i m e acronym? Yeah. That’s a throwback from when i was studying to be a lawyer. And i used demonic says a tool to study for the bar exam. In a way i could get through the bar. That was what got through that got me through a swell. So i don’t remember. Do you remember any any cool acronyms? I remember ocean, which which are the elements of adverse possession. No adverse possession. Okay, open continuous something something. And no tort aureus was adverse. Possession is when you take over land, right? Yeah. For twenty years, you’ve. You’ve done all these things on a piece of land openly, notoriously continuously all that you can take it over, and you own it, they. But if the owner notices it at year nineteen and a half and it’s a twenty year statute you squandered. You squandered a lot of good time and money. Kind of. But you were trying to steal somebody’s land, so you deserve to be thwarted. Yeah. It’s. A very old legal concept. I i doubt it. I think it’s still used in some situations because you hear about squatters, artists squatting in buildings, loft buildings in manhattan years ago anyway, and that eventually took over ownership because the landlords were out of town. They didn’t care. They let the building’s rundown and artists got to take over whole buildings here night that’s, ocean. But we want about ryan, which you don’t spell, right, but that’s okay, are i am for when we when we trigger these things, what what’s what’s our starts off with our what does it stand for? So rhyme is our renewal lease. I invest in property or equipment or in training staff, for example, m is moving, ieave, relocating, moving from one place to another. He is expanding. Maybe i’m in this building, but i’m expanding next door those of the typical triggers for economic benefits because that means that the organization is moving in a direction which lends itself to contributing to the local economy means somebody’s growing somebody’s acting somebody’s, putting money at stake in the system. And therefore government’s interested in supporting that renewing the lease that that happens pretty pretty frequently. Andi again, i don’t think there’s awareness that just because you’re signing a new, maybe five or ten year lease, that there may be an incentive available for you, exactly, i mean, who knew on again that’s why i have a job, but and in most areas that’s where there are, say, designated zones where economic activity is being encouraged in the middle of manhattan? Not so much, you know, but in other areas you’re talking nationally, yeah, nationally in other areas where you’ve got designated zones, maybe formerly distressed areas, areas that are geared for revitalisation areas that are trying tio, you know, make a comeback, those of the kinds of situations where simply renewing the lease, in other words, re committing to your stake in that community. Khun trigger some kind of economic benefit for your organization. Excellent. Okay, um, we have just a minute or so before we take our first break for a couple seconds, so should you look around for possible incentives? Maybe before you’re renewing? I mean, when you know you’re lisa’s coming to a close because maybe not only if you stay, but maybe if you leased somewhere else, you’d be in the same community, you’d be a little better off. Sure, sure, i mean, the most intelligent organizations look att this was saying, there are listeners are no, they’re there, they’re there. They want to be more intelligent. By definition, they want to get more more intelligent, right? Sure, sure. So those organizations are well advised to look early and look often and consider what their options are before, you know, making a commitment, a contractual commitment, somewhere. We have to take a break for a couple seconds, and when we come back and came and i are going to keep talking about the money is out there. All these economic incentives for you stay with us. Talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Are you confused about which died it’s, right for you? Are you tired of being tired? How about improving your energy strength and endurance? How i’m rika keck, holistic nutrition and wellness consultant? If you have answered yes to any of my questions, contact me now at n y integrated health dot com, or it’s. Six for six to eight, five, eight five eight eight initiate change and transform your life. Are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stopped by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications. That’s the answer. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’ve got to send some live listener love. I love this one. Kamloops, british columbia welcome, kamloops, san antonio, texas, arlington, virginia live listener love going to you and lynette singleton is out there. She is live tweeting the show so if you want to follow the net if you want a live tweet along with her, use the hashtag non-profit radio. Hello, lynette live listen love also new york, new york i’m glad you’re with us beijing china chung ching, china chung shot china ni hao, amazing asia checking in and there’s more, much more to come and we’ve been we just went around the globe and from virginia teo chungking, china let’s talk about your ill a little rhyme i investing now a charity may not ah latto charities can’t necessarily buy real estate. Is that the investment? Is that what the eye is in for? Invest? You know, investment i used not in so much in the wall street sense, but in the sense of spending money, capital on plant equipment staff was raining stuff. What if? What if you’re renovating? That’s? Good to accounts. Sure, you’re spending money in an improvement and of space and ah, that contributes to the economy too. Okay, m is moving was that about moving? So this is where jurisdictions get really competitive and it gets very interesting because suppose, you know, your organization has the opportunity to go really anywhere. You could go to china, you could go to california, you could go to arlington, virginia, shout out to my old neighbor in virginia, and so jurisdictions compete to attract those types of organizations when they’re deciding whether to move. Ah, because that could mean the transfer of jobs and investment and money into community from elsewhere. Your neighbour in arlington did they know when you when you were twelve years old on the elementary school radio? I don’t know, we should ask. Maybe they will remember the show if you remember the show use hashtag non-profit radio arlington, virginia if you can remember what an kayman sure with twelve years old and tell us where we’re watching the hashtag here in studio it was my peak. No, i don’t know that this is the peak e i don’t know if you’ve been on oprah or good morning. America. But this is your climax right here. There you go, it’s. All been leading to this moment. Okay. Thank you. Dahna. Expanding. Oh, no. Moving. Oh, no. We get recovered. Moving, expanding, expanding. You said a little about that’s. A little more expanding, particularly in this day and age. Anybody who’s. Adding to their workforce is like that’s the holy grail of economic development right now, because job creation is where government is particularly in wristed in stimulating activity. So i suppose i have ah, small theater company. But i have the opportunity to grow and add set designers and writers and producers. And what not now, that becomes interesting to government because those are represented jobs and therefore, you know, tax revenue. Also, you look at the sort of secondary effect of that kind of activity because those people in that place of work, wherever it is, are spending money. They are buying things. They are contributing sales, taxes and income taxes. And even if the organization itself is exempt from income tax because it’s a charity or educational or non-profit institution, the people who work for it are subject to income tax, and they pay sales tax. And also the organisation uses up energy, so those air costs, which can be mitigated through various incentive programs. And i find that that’s where also currently a lot of interesting opportunities air had in the nonprofit world. Because if you’re say renovating a theater and you have the opportunity to outfit the lights with led lights or something super efficient or make sure your cooling and heating systems are super efficient, then thie utility companies, in addition to government, have many programs available to mitigate those costs. You can actually get cash rebates against that type of spending. Energy efficiency, right? Yeah. I was going to another when i was going to ask you about. And actually something is coming to me. I want to help you with this rhyme. This eyes misspelled acronyms very, very needs. Problematic tim it’s. Pretty lame. That bothers me. Now, if you had r h, we obviously got spell r h y m e for rhyme heat could be heating air conditioning. And that could now that’s little too narrow. I know, but it could trigger the thinking about, uh, energy efficiency. All right, fair enough. Now we need a why? Like what? Do we not have covered training? You don’t really have training. You have it in investing could be investing in your workers. You could have like you train ad h for heat and why for you train you’d taken a little poetic license there, but it works for me. We’ll take that. Okay, i’ll feel better anyway, if we could just do it for the next few minutes, it’ll it’ll ease me. This’s rhyme is very upsetting to me or i am me, um, you mentioned investing in employees and i think there are special programs for hiring veterans. Yes, yes. Let’s. Talk a little about that. Yeah. That’s. Really? Ah, wonderful opportunity. And i wish those programs, you know, were more robust. Ah, in the federal government, there have been programs, too. Basically give tax credits, two employers who are hiring veterans and and the way they have categorized. This is according tio, how long the veteran has been out of work and whether the veteran has some sort of injury. The state of new york, fortunately, has recently passed legislation that says any hiring of veterans can be can qualify for for again tax credits at the state. Level the jobs and the credits really are about they have to be created in twenty, fourteen, twenty, fifteen so there’s a bit of a lag time between when these things can get claimed and also for non-profits those hiring credits not so valuable, right? Because a non-profit is typically exempt from income tax, hence there’s nothing to deduct claim the incentives are against a tax business income tax, right? Okay, in government world, you know that which is tax can be untaxed so often in the toolbox of economic incentives is our are things in the tax code you khun untaxed something, but in the nonprofit world, they’re they’re limited taxes, which an organization might pay. But that being said, there are still taxes that they pay sales and use taxes usually are exempt income taxes, but otherwise they could be paying real property taxes. If they’re in a building that is taxable on, they could be paying energy taxes as well. Ok, on your site, i saw a white paper that talked about for veterans again salary, salary reimbursement. If you hire a vet that does that sound like something that still i think it was a fairly recent white paper talked about salary reimbursement up to fifty percent. For i think six months. Yes, yes. So familiar. Yes, there is a special employer incentive. A subsidy along those lines. Yes. So that’s on the federal level. So that’s for everybody. Um, yeah, let’s, let’s have a difficult time. Your job search mean, they’re often misunderstood and they’re freaking people who think that that is going to freak out on them and, you know, go go ballistic or something. And, well, it says such unfortunate, such an unfortunate, perhaps stereotype and and so untrue. We hired a veteran, a twelve year army captain. Miz? Yes, ms brandi whitlock. She wrote the white paper that i’m referring exactly she’s she’s on the case. So her her research is current and it’s it’s very excellent. And from first hand experience, she can say that boy veterans are eminently employable. She used to deploy thousands and thousands of veterans too distant lands and has served her time for twelve years and elevating herself to captain, working from as a veterans from since high school. And now we’ve been so fortunate to have her on board for the last and she’s been with us now six months, and i’m telling you, this woman can move mountains. She has tremendous discipline and work-life iq, you know, for for non-profits that want to hire vets? I think it was that same white paper i saw there’s something called national resource directory. Okay, an rd dot gov and also recruit military dot com. Excellent. Yes. So if you want to take advantage of some of these economic incentives, is what we’re talking about around hiring vets, there’s, two sites teo that connect vets and that a job seeking with with employers totally. And and if it’s not in that white paper, we have access to it. People can email us for it e mail her to get ah paper she has written about why people should think about hiring veterans and some of the common misconceptions around that. All right, how do we start to research what is available for us locally? We don’t want to keep this to new york, and we haven’t done that. Do you have some resources that you can recommend for people? Tto find what may be available to them in their state, their community, for sure. And so at the risk of giving away some of my currency here, but i’ll do it because you’ve asked so nicely. Usually i don’t ask nicely. In fact, most guests don’t think i do, yeah, so some of my go to resource is thank god for the web, our national databases of grants and economic incentives really primarily directed from the government, the mother of all websites in the united states is called grants dot gov, and that has a comprehensive how to list of out how to register as a non-profit to access ah, government grants, but also the piela and all compendium of all grant opportunities available, whether it’s for health, education, culture, you name it if it exists from the federal government as a grant or economic incentive, it is in there the other thing that i find extremely useful and extremely current, and i’m so proud that the federal government department of energy is even put this together. It’s called desire use a dot or ge not desire your think enough it’s called it’s spelled d e s i r yusa dot or ge and say that one more time. So it again, please d as in david s as in sam i r e yusa dot or ge, and it is the fifty state compendium of all grants and benefits relating teo energy efficiency and renewable energy. So whether you’re a homeowner or you’re a non profit organization or you’re something else, all of the economic benefits currently available in the realm of energy are compiled here. It’s, incredibly current you could drill into every state of the union and every scenario that you could think of to pull up what is currently available. I find it to be enormously helpful, and i can i consulted all the time. I mean, another thing that i think is an overlooked, often overlooked resource. Isa siri’s of grants from the federal government. And they’re about at any given time around twelve agencies that participate in this it’s it’s about innovation in research and development. Grant money. It’s wonderful there. Phase one and phase two grants the program is called sb i are small business innovation research and its sister and companion program most relevant to non-profits is called s t t e r small technology transfer and research program. The federal government gives grants it’s too small organizations ah. Anywhere from one hundred thousand dollars in phase one, five hundred thousand dollars in phase two to help stimulate innovation and research in health technology. Any number energy, any number of areas that the federal government thinks needs attention and these grants are always available. They’re different offerings from time to time. So for example, this month they’re putting together ah, all the proposals that you khun submit in the field of energy and the environment, the epa and the d a we are and then the national health institutes have put up there grantcraft poses that you, khun submit grantwriting and in the stt r program, which is technology transfer, a small business can partner with a with an institution, a non-profit institution, to put thes to get thes grant proposals in i think, at the risk of being political, this is a this is an area where it pays to think about the good things that the federal government does for us in the in the in the in the midst of all the furloughs and the and the complaints about, you know, government being much too big and, you know, you talk about that that very valuable desire, database and all these grants i mean, so no government is not all bad. No, and i don’t think anybody would have been equipped or even interested in putting that together because, you know, what’s in it for them. But that’s, department of energy, you say exact on monday, so you and i all paid for it, so we should use it. And i’m telling you, it’s under wonderful engine thank you for sharing all those valuable resource is your butt didn’t give away the store? I don’t think you did, because these these things that can be complex to apply for sure, right? That’s, that’s the thing i mean, you know, you find the information on the internet, but you really need to do your due diligence your homework to figure out. Is that item actually valid? Is it in place? Is that information current? And then you get into the whole rabbit warren of applying for grantspace benefits, which means you really have to compile lots of information and put the pedal to the metal as they say it’s a lot. Now you have ah, you have a background in dance. And you mentioned your family was in the performance? Yes. And any spillover between that world and your work it ah, new york grand company. Well, as they say, right? All the world’s a stage. So yes, i well, here i am on the radio, performing once again. Well, i invited your not knowing you have ah, have a background, you’re you’re dancing through the grants world dance with grants that’s good. I like that that’s so that’s not actor that’s. An alliteration in which i happen. Teo, like very much deliberations. I haven’t actually gotten any dance grants of late. All right, we’ll work on getting you a dance company client for sure. We have to leave it there. And thank you very much. Thank you. And kayman is founder and ceo of new york grant company. You’ll find the met and why grants dot com and why grants dot com thank you very much again and pleasure. Thank you. Right now we take a break when we come back from that it’s tony’s take two and then here’s an alliteration the ppa latto paul with jean takagi. Stay with me e-giving thinking tooting getting ding, ding, ding ding you’re listening to the talking alternate network waiting to get me anything. You could are you suffering from campaigns? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s two one two, seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Hi, i’m ostomel role, and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour. Eleven a m. We’re gonna have fun. Shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re gonna invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a. M on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz schnoll kayman if you have big ideas but an average budget, tune into tony martignetti non-profit radio for ideas you can use. I do. I’m dr. Robert penna, author of the non-profit outcomes toolbox. Dahna durney welcome back. Time for tony’s. Take two and let me you start that with some live listener. Love fukuoka, japan and tokyo, japan. Konichiwa, tijuana, mexico. Hola, that’s. I’m sorry, it’s, about the best i can do from my eighth grade spanish. I apologize. Do you want a wel welcome? Seoul, korea? I know it. I know it. Anya haserot and italy hyre bon giorno, of course, but there’s one asada dahna satya. I am doing stand up comedy much better than what? You just heard that this evening. So if you happen to be in the new york city metro area and a couple of ur it’s nine. Thirty this evening at metropolitan room on west twenty second street. But for the vast majority of you, the vast, vast majority this’s not that meaningful because you’re listening after the show long after, you know, probably the following week or two. So i take this opportunity to let you know that there are my standup videos are on the youtube channel which israel tony martignetti and there’s some stories of unrequited love in seventh grade and being publicly thrown out of the seventh grade chorus seventh grade was traumatic for me, my struggle with the law school admission test there’s a couple of videos that are up there. It’s not old it’s not depressing. You will laugh. People have been laughing at me since seventh grade. That’s the channel israel tony martignetti on youtube and that is tony’s take two for friday, the tenth of may nineteenth show of the year. I’m very pleased to welcome back jean takagi he’s, principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco, california. He edits the popular non-profit law blogged dot com and on twitter he’s at g tak gt a k welcome back, jean hyre county, thank you very much for having me. Oh, it’s, always a pleasure. Hyre we’re talking about this dan ppa latto video that was that was viral. I think the first one was at ted, a ted conference and then in ten, the non-profit technology network also had him at a conference, but the one i’ve seen is the is the ted version very provocative buy-in therefore controversial, which i admire. I like people who stirred things up a bit, um he’s challenging some basic assumptions and limitations that we have on the on our charitable sector. What what what’s going on there? Well, you know, i like the controversy generated by dana’s welchlin attracted some criticism, but i really love the public discussion on this it’s the youtube and the ted video generated, i think, close to two million views a month now on it can really change the public perception about overviewing what what dance message was or is his general message was maybe we shouldn’t vilify overhead costs and ratios is something negative in the charitable world, and i think that’s a very powerful and important message to get across now, they’re details in there that i may not agree with and you may not agree with us well, but i think that main message is a great talking point. I pulled listeners before the show, and one of the questions i asked is, what do you think of dan? Pull out his vision of amore free market charity sector and fifty percent said it’s brilliant and i embrace it, and forty percent said he raises some interesting points and then the others either didn’t care for it or didn’t see it, but ninety percent either love it or i agree with sounds like with where you are, you know, he raises some very valid points for for a provocative discussion. Yeah, and that doesn’t surprise surprise me at all, you know, i think, however, and talking is a lawyer when we look at some of the rules that are involved, what then maybe saying at lee duitz initially is we need to change public views rather than laws unnecessarily that that limit some of these things. Although he’s launched if you read his book, he’s launched a campaign that will protect the non-profit sector against laws that might limit things like how much you spend on fund-raising as well. So that’s, where we start to get into a little bit more of the controversial stuff and maybe things that don’t resonate as much as compensation, which i think resonates with a lot of people in the nonprofit sector that feel like, you know, if you’re a non-profit executive, you maybe feel like you’re taking a discounter, you’re under compensated for what you might be making in the for-profit world, gino, i have ah clip of his i don’t have a clip for all the five challenges that he issues. And we’re going to talk about them, but i do for a couple, and i have this clip for compensation here’s what he’s essentially saying and we think of this is our system of ethics, but what we don’t realize is that this system has a powerful side effect, which is it gives a really start mutually exclusive choice between doing very well for yourself and your family, or doing good for the world to the brightest minds coming out of our best universities. And since tens of thousands of people who could make a huge difference in the nonprofit sector, marching every year directly into the for-profit sector because they’re not willing to make that kind of lifelong economic sacrifice, we’re talking about limits on compensation, and you and i have talked about this before, but not obviously not in this in this context. What, what what? What are those limits that we’re talking about? Well, the compensation under federal tax laws and state laws may apply as well say that if you’re a charity and you’re going to compensate your executives, that compensation must be just unreasonable as to the corporations so you can’t pay excessively and what? Is excessive is sort of a matter of all the facts and circumstances, but generally we look at comparable than they are, they’re comparable charitable organizations typically, although you can use some other organizations as well toe look at comparable, but are are you within the range of comparables that other organizations they’re paying under similar situations for similarly qualified people with similar responsibilities? So that makes it what we’re really looking at, but that makes it hard than to compete and to go it forces everybody to be at roughly the same level you can’t create a huge incentive by by offering fifty percent more than the comparables yeah, and i think that’s why it resonates with so many people, but i would sort of make everybody aware we’re paying our college football coach is under this standard as well. So there’s quite a bit of room in there for a really, really high compensation that we’re talking about big organizations or institutions like like private universities, well, they confined like a smaller scale. We’re probably not that worried about, you know, compensating smaller organizations where they’re really excessively paying they’re executive directors because that’s very, very rare just under the circumstances, a smaller organization just doesn’t have thie economics t justify that that type of compensation, unless they’re being used inappropriately for, you know, founder to compensate himself or herself way really rarely see that that overcompensation problems, but okay, but that’s, because there’s a big uh there are big disincentives and penalties if there is over compensation, right? Well, i think that’s partially the case, i think the vast majority of charities want to do a good job and served there been intended beneficiaries, so they’re not looking to overcompensate their executives unless executives are providing that return benefit that’s going to be felt by their intended beneficiaries. I don’t think we really get to a problem of excessive compensation, and less boards are using the organizations to pay off often insider and the charity is really running for private interests rather than public interests, and i think there needs to be laws against that, right? But that’s what? You and your finding that that’s quite rare. Well, yeah, i find it quite quite rare when charities are on the up and up about this. There are cases, though, and they aren’t as rare where charities are. Being misused for for the purposes of their insider. Okay, i i pulled listeners on this compensation question. Do you believe charity ceos should be paid comparable to corporate ceos if the organizations and challenges are similar and half said yes, and only about fifteen percent said no, and then there was a bunch of some explanations, which are i’m not sure i have a chance to get to but half think think, yeah, i mean, if the job’s a comparable pay the people comparably well, i don’t exactly agree with that, but what do you think? What do you think, tony? I do agree. I think that a cz long as we can have justification for why the why? The why? The salary is appropriate. The person you know, here she brings enormous talent or connections or, you know, has has had a big track record of success. Then i think it’s okay to go outside the comparables in the community. Why? I think you know that part is what resonates with everybody in this sector and why everybody’s cheering dan, or at least fifty percent according to our poll or your pole but here’s, the problem is that for-profit they’re not really limited to the compensation they can pay, they’re executives on dh public companies are there’s a little bit of an exception in there with security flaws that are involved there, but for the most part, for-profit compay whatever they want, teo executives now non-profits were given the same standards and allowed to go up to that level, then there could be a lot more abuses of about individual charities, even though i think even still the vast majority of charities would not misuse that compensation tool, but with a few bad cases, the media jumped on it, and then public confidence in the sector dropped. Yeah, i was afraid that there’s not going to be just, you know, attraction of mohr individuals into the non-profit sector, which is great toe open up the talent pool because more people khun khun, vie for these jobs that are paying a higher salary, but i think you know, the negative influence on the sector and the public trust, maybe mohr of ah, a detriment to the sector than the individuals that were attracting let’s go to another area that he challenges us on advertising and marketing and his concern. Is that the public doesn’t like to see donations used for advertising, right? Yeah, and i think you probably recognize that somebody who’s been involved professionally and fund-raising as well, tony, that that that donors may not really appreciate high advertising costs, although the impact of those advertising costs maybe very powerful dan is experienced with his breast cancer, walks, a bicycle rides, but there are some some concerns there as well. I mean, the legal rules that might be involved in that we’re not allowed to use charities, uh, to promote the private interest except incidentally, in furtherance of our public interests or our mission. And if we spend so much money on advertising instead of programs, that might be an indication that we are operating the charity for the benefit of the commercial fund-raising organization. So if just to give you a ridiculous example, if ninety cents of every dollar you donate to a charity was spent to offset the advertising cost, do you think you to donate? You know, even though the church may have got ten cents that it wouldn’t have otherwise received, i don’t think the public is going to be happy about that, and even if there were no laws prohibiting something like that, i think there’s a problem there if it occurs year after year after year, with a ninety percent overhead like that, ok, well, but that’s an extreme example, ninety percent right? And the money that you do devote to advertising could be used to increase scale considerably. As as you know, as dan describes in his breast cancer walk charity yeah, and that’s where i, you know, absolutely agree that we can’t we can’t just take a look at overhead and even look at it on a one year, two year, a three year basis and judge of charity based on that, maybe a seventy percent overhead would be justified for a couple years if we’re building up to scale a massive campaign and educational effort, there would be the question about whether the cost is actually overhead or programmatic in terms of educating the public as well. So that’s, really a lot of variables involved, but i think you do need some laws again to make sure that, you know, i don’t know if you received these calls, tony, but there used to be some some abuses here where? People would phone your residents and say, you know where charity that’s affiliated with the policeman or the fireman, you know, please loan it to us. A lot of times, those were run by commercial fund-raising companies that were taking ninety percent of every dollar, and the charities were not really exercising any oversight over it because they were just getting ten cents of every dollar that they would never have seen anyway. Jean, we have to. We have to go away for a couple seconds. We’ll be right back. Keep talking about the the ppa latto paul with a question mark, this is a question. Stay with us. Cerini yeah, you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Dahna got lots more live listener love troy, new york. Portland, oregon. Havana, florida, san francisco, california, india welcome, india, you’re you’re location is masked. We know we know that you’re there, but we don’t know where your they’re welcome everyone. Guangzhou, china, shanghai, china ni hao on dh chou fu japan konnichi wa okay, gene, um, let’s, let’s, talk about the risk taking you and i are gonna have to continue this conversation. I can tell we’ll follow it up next month when you’re back, because it’s too rich topic teo, i think just covering just one segment, the next area really is is taking risks. What? What? What’s ah what’s dan pallotti is concerned there. Well, i i think dance concern is that non-profits are not taking any risks. We’re too stuck on the status quo, and that doesn’t allow us to scale the solve some of the big social problems, and we’re not getting anywhere by not taking those risks really important theme, i think that’s resonating throughout the sector i pulled listeners on this one is your charity or one you’re thinking of to risk averse in achieving its goals? In other words, would it have more? Positive outcomes in the long term if it took greater risks, fifty percent say yes and twenty five percent say no and then others had some comments. So fifty percent, of course we don’t know if it’s the same fifty percent of the time, but they seem to agree. But what is it in our by-laws gene that’s? Ah, putting a cap on risk taking well, there are a couple things. The first is the board’s duty of care, so they’re responsible for making sure that the use of the charitable assets are properly used to further the charitable mission of the organization and they have to use reasonable care of what would call and i’m scared of getting into jargon jail, but an ordinarily prudent person in like circumstances. What the hell is that? So it’s the average reasonable person who’s in charge of something like their own business? If they think it would be reasonable, expend their money in a certain way, then that’s permissible, right? But thea average person not not the adventurous, not the average adventurous person. Yeah, because you’re not using your own money, but you’re using charitable funds. We’ve got certain laws that prohibit you from being sort of wildly speculative, but there’s a really important, a sort of distinction to make first is you can’t breathe pretty speculative if the activity you’re investing in is completely in furtherance of your charitable purposes. But if we’re just talking about a revenue generating activity just like a fundraising event but not necessarily a new form of research for breast cancer, for example, but we’re talking about investing on a fundraising event. Now we’ve got a duty not to speculate and that that’s usually under state laws. So we’re supposed to not speculate wildly here, and they would be like investing just all of our reserve assets in one stock and sort of betting that apple is going to go through the roof instead of sort of pausing to think. Well, what if what happens if if apple stock doesn’t go through the well, let’s, focus on what you just said. You can speculate if it’s directly related to your mission. Yeah, you can speculate on a new program that that might do very well in advancing your mission or it might not. But that program is directly related to your mission. It’s not just the fund-raising program okay, yeah, all right, sure, but and then you, of course, you have the the board and, you know, we’re going back to boards tend to be conservative, and then you’ll have donors that, you know, we don’t we don’t talk a lot about failure in the charity sector and and if there isn’t a willing to fail, latto says, as you know, prohibiting failure is gonna kill innovation. I agree with that one hundred percent, yeah, of course, i mean that’s like an equation, yeah, but you’re going to have these prohibition if they’re not legal prohibition is going to have these sort of traditional prohibitions on risk taking and among your donors and maybe even among your board, yeah, and it’s a matter of educating our donors and especially hard board members to invest in that. So we’ve got to invest in educating our donors and boardmember so we can invest on innovation and tolerance of failures. You’ve got something in california unique, teo non-profits there that prohibits this kind of risk taking that puts a limit on it any way you want to say little about that. Well, in california, they’re special rules on how you prudently invested your income so again, it’s just a rule that says you may not speculate and mustn’t said, look to the permanent disposition of the funds considering the probable income as well as the probable safety of the non-profits capital. So if you want to invest in buying a coffee shop, you know that may not be a prudent investment if that’s where you’re putting all your money, even though there might be a very high upside to it. So, you know, it’s usually risk and return are related, and if you’re going to go high risk to get that high return and it’s purely and money investment, well, that’s going to be subject to those laws, if it’s a programmatic investments, then you’ve got some leeway there. Okay, now we don’t really have time to talk about the next to so we’re going to we’re going to hold those off dankmyer latto talks about time horizon and and attracting risk capital by sharing prophet, you and i will talk about those next time so let’s, spend a couple minutes. What would you like to see change, jeanne? Well, i’d like to see that i think the biggest point that that i made in the beginning is that overhead has got to be seen by the public first, something that’s not necessarily evil, overhead or high overhead if it’s used to build scale if it’s used to build solid infrastructures and systems, maybe a very prudent thing. I think in the for-profit world, if you’ve got venture capitalist looking to invest, uh, in some new business, they’re not going to want to see an organization that spent xero on overhead structure that business because it’s goingto say, well, that’s built on a really shaky infrastructure, you know, and maybe a foundation of straw that could collapse at any moment in the future just by going cheap now. So, uh, looking at overhead in and of itself is just a really bad way to judge organizations, and i think that’s the biggest message, maybe the secondary message is toe look att compensation and say, hey, we’ve got to be aware that the next generation is coming in often times with a lot of college debt, and if we want to attract people who have really good hearts into into the non-profit sector and there may be, you know, dirt. That month non-profit sector leaders as the baby boom generation starts to retire, we’ve got to really take care to make sure that that our compensation is reasonable enough for them to not have this luxurious life unnecessarily but have a reasonable life, especially in metropolitan cities like new york and san francisco, where it’s really expensive to live and i gotta factor those things in we have to leave it there. Gene takagi principle of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group you’ll find him at non-profit law blawg dot com and on twitter he’s at g tak e ta ke gene always a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you. We’ll continue the conversation next time you’re on next week, gary vaynerchuk you may know him as gary v he’s, a new york times best selling author. Very popular speaker, blogger and consultant. We’ll talk about his upcoming book, jab, jab, jab right hook i think i’m pretty sure we’re going to talk about these celebrities are a little tough to pin down, but i think that’s what we’re gonna talk about fremery a simple she’s, the prospect finder, our prospect research contributor and are doi n of dirt cheap and free research resource is, and she’ll have more of those two share next week. Check us out all over the web links air on my blogged at tony martignetti dot com insert sponsor message we have over nine thousand listeners, fundraisers and board members and leaders of small and midsize charities listening each week you can contact me on my blogged if you want to talk about sponsoring the show, i want to give away a social media road map. This is a booklet about a forty page booklet very informative and concise from amy sample ward so post on twitter to get this the social media roadmap i want you to post on twitter right now live listeners the first one to post on twitter using the hashtag non-profit radio i’m listening live too non-profit radio and be sure and use that hashtag first person who posts that gets a social media road map. Our creative producer was claire meyerhoff. Janice taylor is our line producer and the show’s social media is by regina walton of organic social media. The remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules, i hope. You’ll be with me next friday, one to two p, m eastern, et. Talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com i didn’t think the student getting thinking to do. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Get in. Nothing. 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