141: The Money Is Out There & The Pallotta Pall – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Ann Kayman, founder and CEO of New York Grant Company

Gene Takagi, principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.com

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Durney no hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host it’s, so good to be back in the studio. I’ve been away with two pre recorded shows in a week, so good to be back here, it’s may tenth, twenty thirteen oh, i hope you’re with me last week, i’d suffer pseudo member nous kel itis if i came to learn that you had missed small non-profits raise more money consultant and author amy eisenstein returned last week. She’s, the principal of tripoint fund-raising and it took her two years to write her new book, raising more with less. We learned that that time was well spent still two years i don’t know this week the money is out there and kayman founder and ceo of new york grant money is a treasure of valuable information about grants, discounts, rebates and other money incentives throughout the country that get triggered when you re new release, move, expand, renovate, we’ll talk about other georgia triggers as well, investing energy savings, she explains what’s out there and how to find it also the ppa latto paul, have you seen? Dan pallotti’s viral video from ted it’s called the way we think about charity is dead wrong our legal contributor jean takagi principle of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo-sage san francisco shares his perspective on how we got here and what would need to change and should it to achieve pallotti’s vision of amore free market charity sector between the guests on tony’s take two, i’m doing stand up comedy tonight in new york city, and maybe if you’re listening live and local, maybe you could make it my pleasure. Now, to welcome to the studio and kayman founder and ceo of new york chadband company, they worked to obtain economic grants and incentives for clients in the new york metro area and nationally. Previously, she served in the new york city mayoral administrations of rudolph giuliani and michael bloomberg as head of business development for the new york city economic development corporation. She’s, a former dancer, she was doing radio at twelve years old. It’s my pleasure to welcome to the show and kayman and welcome. Thank you, tony it’s a joy to be here a joy thank you. Most people just say it’s like pleasure refund, but joy that’s terrific. Why were you doing radio at twelve years old? What was that about? I guess i’m a born ham. I came from a family of hams. If that’s still a word that’s used today. Sure. It’s couples fashion. Okay, so you’re not kosher, but what were you doing? A radio it at twelve years old, i got invited to to write and produce and be star of home run write a show in grammar school. And it was just a random opportunity in alexandria, virginia, which is where i grew up. And ah, you know, i just gravitated toward that stuff because of my background and family and interest in all that stuff and things having to do with performing. What was your show about twelve years old? I’m sure it was incredibly insightful and thoughtful and you don’t remember. I don’t remember. Okay, all right, let’s talk about some grants and some other opportunity. I don’t want to limit it to grantspace talk about economic incentives. Cool for for our audience, small and midsize charities. Why are these things made available? The idea is that there needs to be some stimulus at all times. To incentivize organisations to grow and invest and hyre create jobs and really contribute to the economic well being of an area or state a country. And so programs have evolved and exist just everywhere everywhere on the planet, actually to help encourage activity that will contribute to the economy of any given jurisdiction. Okay, so we could be talking about city state this’s way also talking federal level opportunities incentives? Yes, most definitely every layer of government. Rnc va ble has something to offer on the economic menu, if you will, to encourage organizations could be for-profit not-for-profits combination, ah, to invest, to grow to hyre to do all the kinds of good things that really contribute to the economic base, the tax base and the you know, the economic opportunities for people, wherever they might be. On the charitable side are their incentives mohr for certain types of charitable work than other types of charitable work. Not really. I mean, where if you look at the landscape out there of who’s giving and who’s getting, you see activity in social services, obviously elder care charter schools, but also theater, dance, performing, arts, culture definitely as well as health. Services and other charitable and religious for example, institutions, you know, you name it, whatever is on the spectrum on the knot in the nonprofit world there some e-giving thank god going on because organizations depend for their lifeblood on e-giving not only by private donors, but also by public donors. Yeah, and i don’t think there’s great awareness that these programs are available at all different levels of government. Exactly that’s why i have a job. I mean, we started our firm eleven years ago with the idea to bridge that gap because there were a lot of things that are were on the economic menu by federal, state and local government. I mean, we’re here in new york city, but we’re not unique in terms of jurisdictions offering stuff, and there was very little in the way of know how about what was available, how to go get it, how to cut through the red tape, deal with the bureaucracy and really maximize somebody’s return while minimizing their hassle. So our team based here in manhattan is designed tio work through that we we navigate the mazes we say of these economic programs for all kinds of organizations. Large and small. And you have dahna a little acronym for for what triggers these incentives rhyme your r i m e acronym? Yeah. That’s a throwback from when i was studying to be a lawyer. And i used demonic says a tool to study for the bar exam. In a way i could get through the bar. That was what got through that got me through a swell. So i don’t remember. Do you remember any any cool acronyms? I remember ocean, which which are the elements of adverse possession. No adverse possession. Okay, open continuous something something. And no tort aureus was adverse. Possession is when you take over land, right? Yeah. For twenty years, you’ve. You’ve done all these things on a piece of land openly, notoriously continuously all that you can take it over, and you own it, they. But if the owner notices it at year nineteen and a half and it’s a twenty year statute you squandered. You squandered a lot of good time and money. Kind of. But you were trying to steal somebody’s land, so you deserve to be thwarted. Yeah. It’s. A very old legal concept. I i doubt it. I think it’s still used in some situations because you hear about squatters, artists squatting in buildings, loft buildings in manhattan years ago anyway, and that eventually took over ownership because the landlords were out of town. They didn’t care. They let the building’s rundown and artists got to take over whole buildings here night that’s, ocean. But we want about ryan, which you don’t spell, right, but that’s okay, are i am for when we when we trigger these things, what what’s what’s our starts off with our what does it stand for? So rhyme is our renewal lease. I invest in property or equipment or in training staff, for example, m is moving, ieave, relocating, moving from one place to another. He is expanding. Maybe i’m in this building, but i’m expanding next door those of the typical triggers for economic benefits because that means that the organization is moving in a direction which lends itself to contributing to the local economy means somebody’s growing somebody’s acting somebody’s, putting money at stake in the system. And therefore government’s interested in supporting that renewing the lease that that happens pretty pretty frequently. Andi again, i don’t think there’s awareness that just because you’re signing a new, maybe five or ten year lease, that there may be an incentive available for you, exactly, i mean, who knew on again that’s why i have a job, but and in most areas that’s where there are, say, designated zones where economic activity is being encouraged in the middle of manhattan? Not so much, you know, but in other areas you’re talking nationally, yeah, nationally in other areas where you’ve got designated zones, maybe formerly distressed areas, areas that are geared for revitalisation areas that are trying tio, you know, make a comeback, those of the kinds of situations where simply renewing the lease, in other words, re committing to your stake in that community. Khun trigger some kind of economic benefit for your organization. Excellent. Okay, um, we have just a minute or so before we take our first break for a couple seconds, so should you look around for possible incentives? Maybe before you’re renewing? I mean, when you know you’re lisa’s coming to a close because maybe not only if you stay, but maybe if you leased somewhere else, you’d be in the same community, you’d be a little better off. Sure, sure, i mean, the most intelligent organizations look att this was saying, there are listeners are no, they’re there, they’re there. They want to be more intelligent. By definition, they want to get more more intelligent, right? Sure, sure. So those organizations are well advised to look early and look often and consider what their options are before, you know, making a commitment, a contractual commitment, somewhere. We have to take a break for a couple seconds, and when we come back and came and i are going to keep talking about the money is out there. All these economic incentives for you stay with us. Talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Are you confused about which died it’s, right for you? Are you tired of being tired? How about improving your energy strength and endurance? How i’m rika keck, holistic nutrition and wellness consultant? If you have answered yes to any of my questions, contact me now at n y integrated health dot com, or it’s. Six for six to eight, five, eight five eight eight initiate change and transform your life. Are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stopped by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications. That’s the answer. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’ve got to send some live listener love. I love this one. Kamloops, british columbia welcome, kamloops, san antonio, texas, arlington, virginia live listener love going to you and lynette singleton is out there. She is live tweeting the show so if you want to follow the net if you want a live tweet along with her, use the hashtag non-profit radio. Hello, lynette live listen love also new york, new york i’m glad you’re with us beijing china chung ching, china chung shot china ni hao, amazing asia checking in and there’s more, much more to come and we’ve been we just went around the globe and from virginia teo chungking, china let’s talk about your ill a little rhyme i investing now a charity may not ah latto charities can’t necessarily buy real estate. Is that the investment? Is that what the eye is in for? Invest? You know, investment i used not in so much in the wall street sense, but in the sense of spending money, capital on plant equipment staff was raining stuff. What if? What if you’re renovating? That’s? Good to accounts. Sure, you’re spending money in an improvement and of space and ah, that contributes to the economy too. Okay, m is moving was that about moving? So this is where jurisdictions get really competitive and it gets very interesting because suppose, you know, your organization has the opportunity to go really anywhere. You could go to china, you could go to california, you could go to arlington, virginia, shout out to my old neighbor in virginia, and so jurisdictions compete to attract those types of organizations when they’re deciding whether to move. Ah, because that could mean the transfer of jobs and investment and money into community from elsewhere. Your neighbour in arlington did they know when you when you were twelve years old on the elementary school radio? I don’t know, we should ask. Maybe they will remember the show if you remember the show use hashtag non-profit radio arlington, virginia if you can remember what an kayman sure with twelve years old and tell us where we’re watching the hashtag here in studio it was my peak. No, i don’t know that this is the peak e i don’t know if you’ve been on oprah or good morning. America. But this is your climax right here. There you go, it’s. All been leading to this moment. Okay. Thank you. Dahna. Expanding. Oh, no. Moving. Oh, no. We get recovered. Moving, expanding, expanding. You said a little about that’s. A little more expanding, particularly in this day and age. Anybody who’s. Adding to their workforce is like that’s the holy grail of economic development right now, because job creation is where government is particularly in wristed in stimulating activity. So i suppose i have ah, small theater company. But i have the opportunity to grow and add set designers and writers and producers. And what not now, that becomes interesting to government because those are represented jobs and therefore, you know, tax revenue. Also, you look at the sort of secondary effect of that kind of activity because those people in that place of work, wherever it is, are spending money. They are buying things. They are contributing sales, taxes and income taxes. And even if the organization itself is exempt from income tax because it’s a charity or educational or non-profit institution, the people who work for it are subject to income tax, and they pay sales tax. And also the organisation uses up energy, so those air costs, which can be mitigated through various incentive programs. And i find that that’s where also currently a lot of interesting opportunities air had in the nonprofit world. Because if you’re say renovating a theater and you have the opportunity to outfit the lights with led lights or something super efficient or make sure your cooling and heating systems are super efficient, then thie utility companies, in addition to government, have many programs available to mitigate those costs. You can actually get cash rebates against that type of spending. Energy efficiency, right? Yeah. I was going to another when i was going to ask you about. And actually something is coming to me. I want to help you with this rhyme. This eyes misspelled acronyms very, very needs. Problematic tim it’s. Pretty lame. That bothers me. Now, if you had r h, we obviously got spell r h y m e for rhyme heat could be heating air conditioning. And that could now that’s little too narrow. I know, but it could trigger the thinking about, uh, energy efficiency. All right, fair enough. Now we need a why? Like what? Do we not have covered training? You don’t really have training. You have it in investing could be investing in your workers. You could have like you train ad h for heat and why for you train you’d taken a little poetic license there, but it works for me. We’ll take that. Okay, i’ll feel better anyway, if we could just do it for the next few minutes, it’ll it’ll ease me. This’s rhyme is very upsetting to me or i am me, um, you mentioned investing in employees and i think there are special programs for hiring veterans. Yes, yes. Let’s. Talk a little about that. Yeah. That’s. Really? Ah, wonderful opportunity. And i wish those programs, you know, were more robust. Ah, in the federal government, there have been programs, too. Basically give tax credits, two employers who are hiring veterans and and the way they have categorized. This is according tio, how long the veteran has been out of work and whether the veteran has some sort of injury. The state of new york, fortunately, has recently passed legislation that says any hiring of veterans can be can qualify for for again tax credits at the state. Level the jobs and the credits really are about they have to be created in twenty, fourteen, twenty, fifteen so there’s a bit of a lag time between when these things can get claimed and also for non-profits those hiring credits not so valuable, right? Because a non-profit is typically exempt from income tax, hence there’s nothing to deduct claim the incentives are against a tax business income tax, right? Okay, in government world, you know that which is tax can be untaxed so often in the toolbox of economic incentives is our are things in the tax code you khun untaxed something, but in the nonprofit world, they’re they’re limited taxes, which an organization might pay. But that being said, there are still taxes that they pay sales and use taxes usually are exempt income taxes, but otherwise they could be paying real property taxes. If they’re in a building that is taxable on, they could be paying energy taxes as well. Ok, on your site, i saw a white paper that talked about for veterans again salary, salary reimbursement. If you hire a vet that does that sound like something that still i think it was a fairly recent white paper talked about salary reimbursement up to fifty percent. For i think six months. Yes, yes. So familiar. Yes, there is a special employer incentive. A subsidy along those lines. Yes. So that’s on the federal level. So that’s for everybody. Um, yeah, let’s, let’s have a difficult time. Your job search mean, they’re often misunderstood and they’re freaking people who think that that is going to freak out on them and, you know, go go ballistic or something. And, well, it says such unfortunate, such an unfortunate, perhaps stereotype and and so untrue. We hired a veteran, a twelve year army captain. Miz? Yes, ms brandi whitlock. She wrote the white paper that i’m referring exactly she’s she’s on the case. So her her research is current and it’s it’s very excellent. And from first hand experience, she can say that boy veterans are eminently employable. She used to deploy thousands and thousands of veterans too distant lands and has served her time for twelve years and elevating herself to captain, working from as a veterans from since high school. And now we’ve been so fortunate to have her on board for the last and she’s been with us now six months, and i’m telling you, this woman can move mountains. She has tremendous discipline and work-life iq, you know, for for non-profits that want to hire vets? I think it was that same white paper i saw there’s something called national resource directory. Okay, an rd dot gov and also recruit military dot com. Excellent. Yes. So if you want to take advantage of some of these economic incentives, is what we’re talking about around hiring vets, there’s, two sites teo that connect vets and that a job seeking with with employers totally. And and if it’s not in that white paper, we have access to it. People can email us for it e mail her to get ah paper she has written about why people should think about hiring veterans and some of the common misconceptions around that. All right, how do we start to research what is available for us locally? We don’t want to keep this to new york, and we haven’t done that. Do you have some resources that you can recommend for people? Tto find what may be available to them in their state, their community, for sure. And so at the risk of giving away some of my currency here, but i’ll do it because you’ve asked so nicely. Usually i don’t ask nicely. In fact, most guests don’t think i do, yeah, so some of my go to resource is thank god for the web, our national databases of grants and economic incentives really primarily directed from the government, the mother of all websites in the united states is called grants dot gov, and that has a comprehensive how to list of out how to register as a non-profit to access ah, government grants, but also the piela and all compendium of all grant opportunities available, whether it’s for health, education, culture, you name it if it exists from the federal government as a grant or economic incentive, it is in there the other thing that i find extremely useful and extremely current, and i’m so proud that the federal government department of energy is even put this together. It’s called desire use a dot or ge not desire your think enough it’s called it’s spelled d e s i r yusa dot or ge and say that one more time. So it again, please d as in david s as in sam i r e yusa dot or ge, and it is the fifty state compendium of all grants and benefits relating teo energy efficiency and renewable energy. So whether you’re a homeowner or you’re a non profit organization or you’re something else, all of the economic benefits currently available in the realm of energy are compiled here. It’s, incredibly current you could drill into every state of the union and every scenario that you could think of to pull up what is currently available. I find it to be enormously helpful, and i can i consulted all the time. I mean, another thing that i think is an overlooked, often overlooked resource. Isa siri’s of grants from the federal government. And they’re about at any given time around twelve agencies that participate in this it’s it’s about innovation in research and development. Grant money. It’s wonderful there. Phase one and phase two grants the program is called sb i are small business innovation research and its sister and companion program most relevant to non-profits is called s t t e r small technology transfer and research program. The federal government gives grants it’s too small organizations ah. Anywhere from one hundred thousand dollars in phase one, five hundred thousand dollars in phase two to help stimulate innovation and research in health technology. Any number energy, any number of areas that the federal government thinks needs attention and these grants are always available. They’re different offerings from time to time. So for example, this month they’re putting together ah, all the proposals that you khun submit in the field of energy and the environment, the epa and the d a we are and then the national health institutes have put up there grantcraft poses that you, khun submit grantwriting and in the stt r program, which is technology transfer, a small business can partner with a with an institution, a non-profit institution, to put thes to get thes grant proposals in i think, at the risk of being political, this is a this is an area where it pays to think about the good things that the federal government does for us in the in the in the in the midst of all the furloughs and the and the complaints about, you know, government being much too big and, you know, you talk about that that very valuable desire, database and all these grants i mean, so no government is not all bad. No, and i don’t think anybody would have been equipped or even interested in putting that together because, you know, what’s in it for them. But that’s, department of energy, you say exact on monday, so you and i all paid for it, so we should use it. And i’m telling you, it’s under wonderful engine thank you for sharing all those valuable resource is your butt didn’t give away the store? I don’t think you did, because these these things that can be complex to apply for sure, right? That’s, that’s the thing i mean, you know, you find the information on the internet, but you really need to do your due diligence your homework to figure out. Is that item actually valid? Is it in place? Is that information current? And then you get into the whole rabbit warren of applying for grantspace benefits, which means you really have to compile lots of information and put the pedal to the metal as they say it’s a lot. Now you have ah, you have a background in dance. And you mentioned your family was in the performance? Yes. And any spillover between that world and your work it ah, new york grand company. Well, as they say, right? All the world’s a stage. So yes, i well, here i am on the radio, performing once again. Well, i invited your not knowing you have ah, have a background, you’re you’re dancing through the grants world dance with grants that’s good. I like that that’s so that’s not actor that’s. An alliteration in which i happen. Teo, like very much deliberations. I haven’t actually gotten any dance grants of late. All right, we’ll work on getting you a dance company client for sure. We have to leave it there. And thank you very much. Thank you. And kayman is founder and ceo of new york grant company. You’ll find the met and why grants dot com and why grants dot com thank you very much again and pleasure. Thank you. Right now we take a break when we come back from that it’s tony’s take two and then here’s an alliteration the ppa latto paul with jean takagi. Stay with me e-giving thinking tooting getting ding, ding, ding ding you’re listening to the talking alternate network waiting to get me anything. You could are you suffering from campaigns? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s two one two, seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Hi, i’m ostomel role, and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour. Eleven a m. We’re gonna have fun. Shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re gonna invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a. M on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz schnoll kayman if you have big ideas but an average budget, tune into tony martignetti non-profit radio for ideas you can use. I do. I’m dr. Robert penna, author of the non-profit outcomes toolbox. Dahna durney welcome back. Time for tony’s. Take two and let me you start that with some live listener. Love fukuoka, japan and tokyo, japan. Konichiwa, tijuana, mexico. Hola, that’s. I’m sorry, it’s, about the best i can do from my eighth grade spanish. I apologize. Do you want a wel welcome? Seoul, korea? I know it. I know it. Anya haserot and italy hyre bon giorno, of course, but there’s one asada dahna satya. I am doing stand up comedy much better than what? You just heard that this evening. So if you happen to be in the new york city metro area and a couple of ur it’s nine. Thirty this evening at metropolitan room on west twenty second street. But for the vast majority of you, the vast, vast majority this’s not that meaningful because you’re listening after the show long after, you know, probably the following week or two. So i take this opportunity to let you know that there are my standup videos are on the youtube channel which israel tony martignetti and there’s some stories of unrequited love in seventh grade and being publicly thrown out of the seventh grade chorus seventh grade was traumatic for me, my struggle with the law school admission test there’s a couple of videos that are up there. It’s not old it’s not depressing. You will laugh. People have been laughing at me since seventh grade. That’s the channel israel tony martignetti on youtube and that is tony’s take two for friday, the tenth of may nineteenth show of the year. I’m very pleased to welcome back jean takagi he’s, principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco, california. He edits the popular non-profit law blogged dot com and on twitter he’s at g tak gt a k welcome back, jean hyre county, thank you very much for having me. Oh, it’s, always a pleasure. Hyre we’re talking about this dan ppa latto video that was that was viral. I think the first one was at ted, a ted conference and then in ten, the non-profit technology network also had him at a conference, but the one i’ve seen is the is the ted version very provocative buy-in therefore controversial, which i admire. I like people who stirred things up a bit, um he’s challenging some basic assumptions and limitations that we have on the on our charitable sector. What what what’s going on there? Well, you know, i like the controversy generated by dana’s welchlin attracted some criticism, but i really love the public discussion on this it’s the youtube and the ted video generated, i think, close to two million views a month now on it can really change the public perception about overviewing what what dance message was or is his general message was maybe we shouldn’t vilify overhead costs and ratios is something negative in the charitable world, and i think that’s a very powerful and important message to get across now, they’re details in there that i may not agree with and you may not agree with us well, but i think that main message is a great talking point. I pulled listeners before the show, and one of the questions i asked is, what do you think of dan? Pull out his vision of amore free market charity sector and fifty percent said it’s brilliant and i embrace it, and forty percent said he raises some interesting points and then the others either didn’t care for it or didn’t see it, but ninety percent either love it or i agree with sounds like with where you are, you know, he raises some very valid points for for a provocative discussion. Yeah, and that doesn’t surprise surprise me at all, you know, i think, however, and talking is a lawyer when we look at some of the rules that are involved, what then maybe saying at lee duitz initially is we need to change public views rather than laws unnecessarily that that limit some of these things. Although he’s launched if you read his book, he’s launched a campaign that will protect the non-profit sector against laws that might limit things like how much you spend on fund-raising as well. So that’s, where we start to get into a little bit more of the controversial stuff and maybe things that don’t resonate as much as compensation, which i think resonates with a lot of people in the nonprofit sector that feel like, you know, if you’re a non-profit executive, you maybe feel like you’re taking a discounter, you’re under compensated for what you might be making in the for-profit world, gino, i have ah clip of his i don’t have a clip for all the five challenges that he issues. And we’re going to talk about them, but i do for a couple, and i have this clip for compensation here’s what he’s essentially saying and we think of this is our system of ethics, but what we don’t realize is that this system has a powerful side effect, which is it gives a really start mutually exclusive choice between doing very well for yourself and your family, or doing good for the world to the brightest minds coming out of our best universities. And since tens of thousands of people who could make a huge difference in the nonprofit sector, marching every year directly into the for-profit sector because they’re not willing to make that kind of lifelong economic sacrifice, we’re talking about limits on compensation, and you and i have talked about this before, but not obviously not in this in this context. What, what what? What are those limits that we’re talking about? Well, the compensation under federal tax laws and state laws may apply as well say that if you’re a charity and you’re going to compensate your executives, that compensation must be just unreasonable as to the corporations so you can’t pay excessively and what? Is excessive is sort of a matter of all the facts and circumstances, but generally we look at comparable than they are, they’re comparable charitable organizations typically, although you can use some other organizations as well toe look at comparable, but are are you within the range of comparables that other organizations they’re paying under similar situations for similarly qualified people with similar responsibilities? So that makes it what we’re really looking at, but that makes it hard than to compete and to go it forces everybody to be at roughly the same level you can’t create a huge incentive by by offering fifty percent more than the comparables yeah, and i think that’s why it resonates with so many people, but i would sort of make everybody aware we’re paying our college football coach is under this standard as well. So there’s quite a bit of room in there for a really, really high compensation that we’re talking about big organizations or institutions like like private universities, well, they confined like a smaller scale. We’re probably not that worried about, you know, compensating smaller organizations where they’re really excessively paying they’re executive directors because that’s very, very rare just under the circumstances, a smaller organization just doesn’t have thie economics t justify that that type of compensation, unless they’re being used inappropriately for, you know, founder to compensate himself or herself way really rarely see that that overcompensation problems, but okay, but that’s, because there’s a big uh there are big disincentives and penalties if there is over compensation, right? Well, i think that’s partially the case, i think the vast majority of charities want to do a good job and served there been intended beneficiaries, so they’re not looking to overcompensate their executives unless executives are providing that return benefit that’s going to be felt by their intended beneficiaries. I don’t think we really get to a problem of excessive compensation, and less boards are using the organizations to pay off often insider and the charity is really running for private interests rather than public interests, and i think there needs to be laws against that, right? But that’s what? You and your finding that that’s quite rare. Well, yeah, i find it quite quite rare when charities are on the up and up about this. There are cases, though, and they aren’t as rare where charities are. Being misused for for the purposes of their insider. Okay, i i pulled listeners on this compensation question. Do you believe charity ceos should be paid comparable to corporate ceos if the organizations and challenges are similar and half said yes, and only about fifteen percent said no, and then there was a bunch of some explanations, which are i’m not sure i have a chance to get to but half think think, yeah, i mean, if the job’s a comparable pay the people comparably well, i don’t exactly agree with that, but what do you think? What do you think, tony? I do agree. I think that a cz long as we can have justification for why the why? The why? The salary is appropriate. The person you know, here she brings enormous talent or connections or, you know, has has had a big track record of success. Then i think it’s okay to go outside the comparables in the community. Why? I think you know that part is what resonates with everybody in this sector and why everybody’s cheering dan, or at least fifty percent according to our poll or your pole but here’s, the problem is that for-profit they’re not really limited to the compensation they can pay, they’re executives on dh public companies are there’s a little bit of an exception in there with security flaws that are involved there, but for the most part, for-profit compay whatever they want, teo executives now non-profits were given the same standards and allowed to go up to that level, then there could be a lot more abuses of about individual charities, even though i think even still the vast majority of charities would not misuse that compensation tool, but with a few bad cases, the media jumped on it, and then public confidence in the sector dropped. Yeah, i was afraid that there’s not going to be just, you know, attraction of mohr individuals into the non-profit sector, which is great toe open up the talent pool because more people khun khun, vie for these jobs that are paying a higher salary, but i think you know, the negative influence on the sector and the public trust, maybe mohr of ah, a detriment to the sector than the individuals that were attracting let’s go to another area that he challenges us on advertising and marketing and his concern. Is that the public doesn’t like to see donations used for advertising, right? Yeah, and i think you probably recognize that somebody who’s been involved professionally and fund-raising as well, tony, that that that donors may not really appreciate high advertising costs, although the impact of those advertising costs maybe very powerful dan is experienced with his breast cancer, walks, a bicycle rides, but there are some some concerns there as well. I mean, the legal rules that might be involved in that we’re not allowed to use charities, uh, to promote the private interest except incidentally, in furtherance of our public interests or our mission. And if we spend so much money on advertising instead of programs, that might be an indication that we are operating the charity for the benefit of the commercial fund-raising organization. So if just to give you a ridiculous example, if ninety cents of every dollar you donate to a charity was spent to offset the advertising cost, do you think you to donate? You know, even though the church may have got ten cents that it wouldn’t have otherwise received, i don’t think the public is going to be happy about that, and even if there were no laws prohibiting something like that, i think there’s a problem there if it occurs year after year after year, with a ninety percent overhead like that, ok, well, but that’s an extreme example, ninety percent right? And the money that you do devote to advertising could be used to increase scale considerably. As as you know, as dan describes in his breast cancer walk charity yeah, and that’s where i, you know, absolutely agree that we can’t we can’t just take a look at overhead and even look at it on a one year, two year, a three year basis and judge of charity based on that, maybe a seventy percent overhead would be justified for a couple years if we’re building up to scale a massive campaign and educational effort, there would be the question about whether the cost is actually overhead or programmatic in terms of educating the public as well. So that’s, really a lot of variables involved, but i think you do need some laws again to make sure that, you know, i don’t know if you received these calls, tony, but there used to be some some abuses here where? People would phone your residents and say, you know where charity that’s affiliated with the policeman or the fireman, you know, please loan it to us. A lot of times, those were run by commercial fund-raising companies that were taking ninety percent of every dollar, and the charities were not really exercising any oversight over it because they were just getting ten cents of every dollar that they would never have seen anyway. Jean, we have to. We have to go away for a couple seconds. We’ll be right back. Keep talking about the the ppa latto paul with a question mark, this is a question. Stay with us. Cerini yeah, you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Dahna got lots more live listener love troy, new york. Portland, oregon. Havana, florida, san francisco, california, india welcome, india, you’re you’re location is masked. We know we know that you’re there, but we don’t know where your they’re welcome everyone. Guangzhou, china, shanghai, china ni hao on dh chou fu japan konnichi wa okay, gene, um, let’s, let’s, talk about the risk taking you and i are gonna have to continue this conversation. I can tell we’ll follow it up next month when you’re back, because it’s too rich topic teo, i think just covering just one segment, the next area really is is taking risks. What? What? What’s ah what’s dan pallotti is concerned there. Well, i i think dance concern is that non-profits are not taking any risks. We’re too stuck on the status quo, and that doesn’t allow us to scale the solve some of the big social problems, and we’re not getting anywhere by not taking those risks really important theme, i think that’s resonating throughout the sector i pulled listeners on this one is your charity or one you’re thinking of to risk averse in achieving its goals? In other words, would it have more? Positive outcomes in the long term if it took greater risks, fifty percent say yes and twenty five percent say no and then others had some comments. So fifty percent, of course we don’t know if it’s the same fifty percent of the time, but they seem to agree. But what is it in our by-laws gene that’s? Ah, putting a cap on risk taking well, there are a couple things. The first is the board’s duty of care, so they’re responsible for making sure that the use of the charitable assets are properly used to further the charitable mission of the organization and they have to use reasonable care of what would call and i’m scared of getting into jargon jail, but an ordinarily prudent person in like circumstances. What the hell is that? So it’s the average reasonable person who’s in charge of something like their own business? If they think it would be reasonable, expend their money in a certain way, then that’s permissible, right? But thea average person not not the adventurous, not the average adventurous person. Yeah, because you’re not using your own money, but you’re using charitable funds. We’ve got certain laws that prohibit you from being sort of wildly speculative, but there’s a really important, a sort of distinction to make first is you can’t breathe pretty speculative if the activity you’re investing in is completely in furtherance of your charitable purposes. But if we’re just talking about a revenue generating activity just like a fundraising event but not necessarily a new form of research for breast cancer, for example, but we’re talking about investing on a fundraising event. Now we’ve got a duty not to speculate and that that’s usually under state laws. So we’re supposed to not speculate wildly here, and they would be like investing just all of our reserve assets in one stock and sort of betting that apple is going to go through the roof instead of sort of pausing to think. Well, what if what happens if if apple stock doesn’t go through the well, let’s, focus on what you just said. You can speculate if it’s directly related to your mission. Yeah, you can speculate on a new program that that might do very well in advancing your mission or it might not. But that program is directly related to your mission. It’s not just the fund-raising program okay, yeah, all right, sure, but and then you, of course, you have the the board and, you know, we’re going back to boards tend to be conservative, and then you’ll have donors that, you know, we don’t we don’t talk a lot about failure in the charity sector and and if there isn’t a willing to fail, latto says, as you know, prohibiting failure is gonna kill innovation. I agree with that one hundred percent, yeah, of course, i mean that’s like an equation, yeah, but you’re going to have these prohibition if they’re not legal prohibition is going to have these sort of traditional prohibitions on risk taking and among your donors and maybe even among your board, yeah, and it’s a matter of educating our donors and especially hard board members to invest in that. So we’ve got to invest in educating our donors and boardmember so we can invest on innovation and tolerance of failures. You’ve got something in california unique, teo non-profits there that prohibits this kind of risk taking that puts a limit on it any way you want to say little about that. Well, in california, they’re special rules on how you prudently invested your income so again, it’s just a rule that says you may not speculate and mustn’t said, look to the permanent disposition of the funds considering the probable income as well as the probable safety of the non-profits capital. So if you want to invest in buying a coffee shop, you know that may not be a prudent investment if that’s where you’re putting all your money, even though there might be a very high upside to it. So, you know, it’s usually risk and return are related, and if you’re going to go high risk to get that high return and it’s purely and money investment, well, that’s going to be subject to those laws, if it’s a programmatic investments, then you’ve got some leeway there. Okay, now we don’t really have time to talk about the next to so we’re going to we’re going to hold those off dankmyer latto talks about time horizon and and attracting risk capital by sharing prophet, you and i will talk about those next time so let’s, spend a couple minutes. What would you like to see change, jeanne? Well, i’d like to see that i think the biggest point that that i made in the beginning is that overhead has got to be seen by the public first, something that’s not necessarily evil, overhead or high overhead if it’s used to build scale if it’s used to build solid infrastructures and systems, maybe a very prudent thing. I think in the for-profit world, if you’ve got venture capitalist looking to invest, uh, in some new business, they’re not going to want to see an organization that spent xero on overhead structure that business because it’s goingto say, well, that’s built on a really shaky infrastructure, you know, and maybe a foundation of straw that could collapse at any moment in the future just by going cheap now. So, uh, looking at overhead in and of itself is just a really bad way to judge organizations, and i think that’s the biggest message, maybe the secondary message is toe look att compensation and say, hey, we’ve got to be aware that the next generation is coming in often times with a lot of college debt, and if we want to attract people who have really good hearts into into the non-profit sector and there may be, you know, dirt. That month non-profit sector leaders as the baby boom generation starts to retire, we’ve got to really take care to make sure that that our compensation is reasonable enough for them to not have this luxurious life unnecessarily but have a reasonable life, especially in metropolitan cities like new york and san francisco, where it’s really expensive to live and i gotta factor those things in we have to leave it there. Gene takagi principle of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group you’ll find him at non-profit law blawg dot com and on twitter he’s at g tak e ta ke gene always a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you. We’ll continue the conversation next time you’re on next week, gary vaynerchuk you may know him as gary v he’s, a new york times best selling author. Very popular speaker, blogger and consultant. We’ll talk about his upcoming book, jab, jab, jab right hook i think i’m pretty sure we’re going to talk about these celebrities are a little tough to pin down, but i think that’s what we’re gonna talk about fremery a simple she’s, the prospect finder, our prospect research contributor and are doi n of dirt cheap and free research resource is, and she’ll have more of those two share next week. Check us out all over the web links air on my blogged at tony martignetti dot com insert sponsor message we have over nine thousand listeners, fundraisers and board members and leaders of small and midsize charities listening each week you can contact me on my blogged if you want to talk about sponsoring the show, i want to give away a social media road map. 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137: Followship & Social Media Boundaries – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Allison Fine, co-author of “The Networked Nonprofit.”

Gene Takagi, principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.com

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Dahna hi there on. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Have you read it to review the show on itunes? If you haven’t, i’d be grateful if you go there. I know you don’t have to go back once you subscribe, but i’d be grateful if you would make the trip here’s what some people are saying in reviews gold for non-profits the best non-profits show period although that person had eclipsys after that period. So it’s period eclipsys i’m amazed at the variety equality and depth of his interviews. That person probably thinks i’m shallow. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been amazed he should just be fulfilled and his expectations being met. You have no idea what the trouble i went through to put those three reviews up their different accounts, i had to go to a public library, use the computer there. So please supplement those three that i put up with with your own one two, five star rating and and review the show. I’d be grateful. This is friday, april twelfth and i very much hope that you were with me last week because i would develop acute pancreatitis if i heard that you had missed talk between the generations. Phyllis weiss haserot president of practice development council, is a consultant and coach in cross generational communications think sixtieth, sixty ish boss and twenty five ish employees or seventy year old fundraiser and thirty year old donor-centric ship, phyllis had strategies for understanding and working across the generations. This week, followship alison find, co author of the network non-profit, has been thinking lately about opening organizational culture to allow non-profits to be more reactive to the interests and motivations of their followers, while still keeping oz insight and she’s going to share her thoughts. Also, social media boundaries. Our legal contributor, jean takagi from the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo suggests rules for your use of social media it’s not a free for all for your employees and volunteers, jean will help you stay out of trouble between the guests on tony’s take two. The irs is still using form nine ninety to inquire about your compliance with state charity registration laws. Sounds thrilling, but i can make a lot more interesting than it sounds. My pleasure now to welcome alyson find she studies and rights at the intersection of social media and social change. She’s, author of the award winning book mo mentum, igniting social change in the connected age, published by wile e. Her latest book is the networked non-profit co authored with beth cantor, also widely published. She’s, a contributor to harvard business review online that’s at hbr dot or ge she hosts a monthly podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy called social good. I have one of those, too, and she blog’s a fine blawg at allison fine dot com. They’re two l’s in allison on twitter, she’s at a fine allison with two l’s welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Thanks for having me, tony. I’m delighted to be here. Thanks, alison. Um, you work at the intersection of social media and social change. It sounds like a crossing guard. Yeah, what’s their what’s it that intersection well on off a lot of activity, uh, and a reshaping of institutional life right now. Uh, whereas what used to be on the outside for institutions are in use on the insider is out and that’s the kind of changing of the contours in the landscape that i’ve been taking a hard look at the last several years. What do you mean what’s in was what’s out was in what it’s in is out? What do you mean by that? Well, so imagine tony, you’re running a small social service agencies surety and there are bloggers out there and tweeters and a whole bunch of other folks who are interested in your issue and they’re looking hard. So those folks who used to be on the outside not really able to see inside are poking around now, and they’re talking about your issues and they’re talking about your organization and on the other side, the staff of organisations, whether organizational leadership of likes it or not, are on social media channels and talking about the organization. Well, so what used to be on the inside is now on the outside, uh, and what it does mainly for very traditional non-profit leaders gear the heck out of them. Yeah. There’s ah, right. Scaring about scared about losing control. Yeah, they already lost control. Go continue to care that they’re going to lose it. Okay, on dh. What are your thoughts around? Followship? What do you mean by followship? So now we’re looking at an environment and ecosystem where organizations are flatter, some by economic necessity and others because they’re using social media and networks better and, uh, there’s this changing relationship, as i said between inside and outside and the reality is tony, that people who are open toe helping causes and non-profits aren’t sitting back on their couches waiting to be told what to do, they aren’t waiting for the latest press release to come out, so smart organizations are understanding that in this new environment they have to lead by following their crowd and it’s a very different dynamic. It doesn’t mean they’re not leaders right there setting big goals and saying to folks were trying to get from here, there, you know, we’re trying to end homelessness, we’re trying to reduce obesity, whatever the big goal is, but we need you our crowd to help us get from here to there, and you’re going to do that by being creative and energetic and working side by side with us. But why do why does why do i, as the leader of this very well run? Stewart lee run very efficiently run very productive social organised social service. Organisation that that i’m head of why do i? Why do i need to follow? Don’t i know the goal? What you say you like to say, oz and and how best to get there? I mean, i have a strategic plan, i have a board we’ve we’ve interviewed like minded agencies in the town, in the in the community, we’ve included our community in those interviews to produce that strategic plan. I mean, i think i know best i’m sure you d’oh uh, but the bottom line is, tony, you might think you know best, but social problems are enormously complex. We aren’t making progress in a lot of areas, and if organizations are very honest with themselves, they’ll see oftentimes the lack of progress and we can’t do this work alone, we have got to do this work in communities with communities, and the only way to do that is to treat people as part of your effort, not the foot soldiers doing on ly what you asked. So you’re taking a look at the fact that, uh, things like hunger and poverty and homelessness and domestic violence and climate change any literal way economic we’ve been at these things for generations, you know, so look, over the last thirty years, the needle hasn’t moved on these things, not because we’re not trying, not because there aren’t smart people doing the work, but because they are enormously difficult to solve, and institutions alone can’t solve them. It’s very dismaying to me is i think about all those things that we’ve been at for for generations, but don’t be dismayed, tony, because the great news is we’ve got this, you know, very vital, robust, energetic new way of looking at the world using our social media tool kit oh, and engaging networks of people to do great things, but you’re very encouraged, okay? But you’re concerned also, that people are that leaders are not engaging in the right way. They’re more following their their written strategic plan or they’re they’re treating as you suggested constituents as foot soldiers, you know, do this now, volunteer now sign the petition now. Donate now come to our event, uh, and and and they are exhausted. I spoke to over five hundred social service leaders in wichita, kansas yesterday. Lovely, lovely people. And they are exhausted, tony and they are struggling financially and they’re getting burned out and this is a large reason why pushing the boulder up a hill by yourself as a siloed institution is not an effective way of working. Okay, we don’t have to do it anymore. We have an alternative. Okay, followship is our alternative that’s? Exactly right? Okay, i’m not just made anymore. I’m already uplifted and just just ninety seconds you turn me around all right? So you want teo, you say, you know, take down silos, break down walls, open the culture wei have just like two minutes or so before our first break. What’s our what’s, our first step we need to know where these people are, what they want to do. The first step is listening. Yeah, right. So the first step is once you have come to the understanding of i need to work different, like, you know, there was a world out there that i can connect with. But i have to do it in the right way. Then you begin by listening. What are people out there talking about in regards to my issue and regards, maybe to my institutions. And how can i best help them more listening than we did in the interview’s for creating this music plan that’s exactly right? I’m in a more natural wave of listening through conversation like tony, right? This isn’t a science. This is being human and asking people tell me what you think. Tell me how we’re doing. Tell me why you were dismayed last year when we didn’t do act. I really think social media provides an opportunity for us to re humanize ourselves out there. So i, as the head of this social, i’d like to be ceo of a rather executive director. Okay, president, ceo of this social services so i khun b or i should be engaging directly. Well, you know, social media is not a spectator sport contact sport made everybody hands on and in order for you to run your agency, i think you’ve got to be engaged with your community. All right? I don’t want to break my collarbone. No, like that baseball player did just yesterday. That would be bad. That was just too much contact. But you can’t go on injured reserve. We need you on the field. Okay, on doubt. I mean, i could be having face to face conversations with my folks, too, right? Yes, thanks for the reminder. I never, ever want to give anybody the impression at social media, a substitute for in person engagement. It augments it, it never, ever take the place of it. We’re gonna pick up right there. We got to go away for a couple of minutes. I’ll have some live listener love when we come back and continue this conversation with alison, fine about followship. She’ll stay with me, and i hope you do, too. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you confused about which died it’s, right for you? Are you tired of being tired? How about improving your energy strength and appearance? Hi, i’m ricky keck, holistic nutrition and wellness consultant. If you have answered yes to any of my questions, contact me now at n y integrated ghisolf dot com or it’s. Six for six to eight, five, eight five eight eight initiate change and transform your life. Are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications. That’s. The answer. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com konnichiwa live listener love to tokyo and support of japan. Konnichiwa. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Live listener love also california. We got san francisco and tustin, california. Welcome, san antonio and clifton, texas live listener love to you as well on dh lots of others to come. All right, alison, what should we be listening if we’re gonna be listening? We need to be asking questions of the folks who are connected to our to my cause. What? What? What questions should i be asking? Well, it’s it’s going to depend entirely on your particular cause, tony and and where you are and your life cycle of your organization you just starting. Are you? You know, more mature. I really strongly encouraged people to actually start by just listening and not speaking. Not something that we are taught to dio anywhere. I didn’t take a graduate course in it, did you? No. And in fact, when i was in the dark days when i used to practice law, i was i was always upset that there wasn’t a billing code for listening or thinking that was another there’s never a code for. Thinking i always had to be doing something, producing some documents, some delivery ble what couldn’t i just bill half an hour for thinking about your case? I couldn’t do it. No, i i understand that. And we, you know, in the nonprofit sector b value, dizziness, a great deal. Uh, but it’s very important to get a feel for what people are talking about, what they’re passionate about, what they’re interested in and then to begin to practice asking questions. There’s a great irony, tony actually have to remember howto ask a good question because organizations aren’t good at it we’re so used to broadcasting, though, used to wrapping up ourselves and talking points that are closed, that learning how to honestly openly, authentically asked a riel question that you want to know the answer to that you don’t already know the answer to take some practice. And, of course, this all feeds into riel engagement in the social networks. Exactly. Exactly think about it, tony, think about the number of times you’ve been approached by a non-profit right that there is a they send you a press release or they send you? Ah, you know, direct mail piece. And those aren’t conversations, right? Those they’re just messages being sent at you. You know, it’s a broadcast broadcast right now think about the difference of if you got from somebody who said, you know, i know that you came to our event last year. Um, how’d it go for you? Would you think about it? What do you think about us? What can we do? Better but that’s a conversation. Okay, okay, now we need to ah, keep our goals in sight. Um, you’re just you want us to be you want me to be flexible and how i get to them. That’s exactly right. There’s a group called epic change epic epic change. Okay, they are raising money to give to for global poverty alleviation. And the way they go into every year is they create a facebook group. They invite their, you know, folks duitz expressed an interest in their cause or rather than few fewer into the group they here’s the goal for the year. We’re trying to raise x amount of money or we’re trying to work in a new country. How we going to do it? How we’re going to get from here to there and people really engaged, it takes those great facilitation skills. That’s what followship is all about right? It’s, not the wild west you’re not just letting it go anywhere it wants to go. You’ve got to be a great cocktail party host to make that happen, right? Keeping the conversation going, but it really is being respectful of the creativity and smarts of your supporters and engaging them in a process of getting you from here to there. What am i going to say to my board that looks at me let’s say this is a five year old agency and i’ve got ah, oh, seven hundred fifty thousand dollars annual budget, right, trying to keep it fairly modest, but, you know, i’d like to have achieved something in five years for pete’s sake. Um, my board expects me to be the leader. What am i going to say to them when i’m asking when i’m asking them to allow the agency to be flexible and taking tio not only take into consideration, but follow the follow the lead of the crowd? Uh, with so if you have a very skeptical board, which would be a shame, right? We really got to think about who serves on board and and why we keep packing them with so many lawyers. Yes, much bigger topics for life, right? Because, lord find on certainly uncertainty very, very unsettling. Yes, you well, now. Ah, so if that’s the kind of bored that you have, what i strongly recommend is that you try followship as an experiment, take one small area in which you work for this year, maybe it’s one fund-raising event, maybe it’s one new program or revamping an existing program and try out the idea you’re not throwing the whole organization out. You’re continuing with the things that work. But you are figuring out a new way to work with people that will be particularly appealing to younger supporters. That’s, i think, is the case you could make any board. Okay, we’ll take it and we’ll take it in bite-sized pieces. Could it be? Could we do this around an event? Absolutely. You had suggested the event earlier. How do we do have a wee look what could have done better? Think about the difference tony of posting on facebook from a group that you’ve liked that says march nineteenth is our gala dinner buy your tickets now from a post echo’s up six months earlier that says we’d like to do a spring event. What kinds of things have you been to lately that you like? What kinds of things do you think we could do and start a conversation about it? Which one do you feel more excited about? Yeah, i’m going to participate in the latter. Mohr you engaged me now i have a pretty sizable ego, though. It’s gonna be hard for me now. All right? So you’ll help me persuade the board. Now, i have to now have to persuade myself that i don’t have all the answers in our community geever so if you feel that you have all the answers, i would suggest social change work is probably not a good fit for you. Therapy is probably wise psychiatry, perhaps even psychotropic drugs i’m already using them. I’m afraid already on psychotropics led me to this delusion. This is really, really hard work now, okay? It doesn’t mean that we don’t need mars confit and people running organizations. Of course we do. But if their ego is so large, they don’t allow other people. To help them solve large community problems, and they’re not going to get very far because these are collective problems that need collective solutions. You’re critical of president obama’s campaign back from two thousand eight what what happened there? I don’t think so much in two thousand eight is as opposed to this last one, so two thousand eight it was great fun, right? They let people come in and gave them a menu of things that you could do and let them go, which is great then they forgot about them once they got elected. I didn’t quite know what to do with a multimillion person proud once they got into the white hot right house because, you know, forbid somebody should talk about marijuana or something that made them uncomfortable. So they put them all into a direct mail, dona base and that’s. What they did this last election cycle was that they had a very clear, tightly controlled, um, ways of managing people as fundraisers and as voters. And that was it. So i found the last cycle enormously disempowering for people. Zamora how they treated the two thousand eight followers. Exactly in two thousand twelve you don’t really think you’re so smart and creative anymore. We don’t really need your help that way. All we need are your checks in your vote. People have a lot more to give them that ego. We know it now. We’ve been in office for years. We know what we’re doing, we know what we’re doing, and we’re going to control this thing to get from here to there. Allison fine is and author most recently of the network to non-profit, which is widely published and that you can find it on amazon. You can also find it on the barnes and noble actually found it a little less expensive at barnes and noble. Um, and i want to send some more live listener love, so to new bern, north carolina, frederick, maryland, and lasalle, illinois live listener love we have listeners in china knee how that’s from shanghai and hei bai, the asian continent very well represented for tony martignetti non-profit radio. Thank you. I’m glad you’re with us week to week. Um, alison, do you think a a presidential candidate could emerge from the social networks? I think what we’re going to see tony is we’re going to see it start at a more grassroots level. We’re going to start to see some layers around the country and then some governors who come up this way. Uh, it’s too hard to try to scale this at a national level first, i think, but you’re going to find somebody who’s very good at this. And, you know, rand paul could be that person because the tea party really get followship or there really are they particularly grassroots organizing online in a way that other people down they are particularly good at online engagement there. Fenton, stick at it. How so? What? What does that they do that you admire? Uh, they allow lots and lots of people to talk very loudly. Right? So being loud doesn’t bother them at all. A part of their dna. Being loud bothers other organizations and awful lot. It scares them. They support local organizing without having a need to try to control all the local organizing. They’re fried or foundation does the same thing right gives you an idea of what you should be doing. So the local p party talk. About these kinds of things, but when and how you do it that’s up to you say the name of the foundation again. You cut out. I’m sorry. The surfrider foundation. Thank you. Surf rider. Okay, they’re fried. Er it’s a non-profit thirty five years old in county started in california to provide coastal cleanup. They have hundreds of, um, chapters around the country. And tony, they basically let them do what they want to do. If you want to mash up our logo, go ahead. If you want teo street cleanup this year instead of coastal cleanup, go ahead. And in the end, the spokes do an amazing amount of work on dh. Just engage thousands of volunteers in this third rider. Like the tea party, i understand that you can provide big goals. You can provide the contours of what we need done and then let people go. Those are excellent examples. I never thought of the tea party as as such a good example of online engagement. But yeah, everything you’re saying is true. They do. They said broad outlines and and then they have hundreds of local activists and i mean and low under the local. Chapters and they’re not worried about descent. They’re not worried about disagreement, they’re not worried about some yelling. You know what happens to awesome with organizations, tony, is they’re so concerned about anything that smacks of criticism that they find it very difficult to step outside in unguarded ways. All right, um, the strategic plan that i’ve mentioned that we my organization spent about twenty thousand dollars on for a consultant to help administer and do the interviews and coalesce, and we had that nice powerpoint deck that they presented to the board a year ago. What am i going to do with my strategic plan? Throw it out. Oh, allison, fine, i said i was being very polite when you mentioned it the first time, and i didn’t bring it up. What a waste of money it was. Well, all right, let’s, talk about it now, because i’ve got my board on board and i’ve set my ego aside. That’s a very big step. Yeah, but it hasn’t solved the problem yet, right? So look how many groups you know that spent all that time and money on a strategic plan. Do everything in the planet at the end. Go the boy. That was the best thing we ever did. All right, maybe one or two over my career. Mainly. What you hear is holy, who spent a lot of time on that thing for sure. And in that process, you know, closer to your community as an organization, right? You had an outside or talk to them a zoho you couldn’t talk to them, which i don’t underst dan oh, that’s interested? Yes, i can’t talk to your community. That’s the core got a scientific approach, tio data collection because that’s the corner of their plan. You know, i was a program evaluator for a long time, tony. So you know, i have respect for people who collect data, but to say that you need an outside to come in and interview stakeholders for your organization, as opposed to the conversations you should be having every day with the people who are most important to your efforts. I don’t get it. And then the worst part, though, is pretending that we can project out years at a time. Right now, when anybody who’s successful in business will tell you right now that you can’t plan out more than a year? You just can’t your troublemaker. I am okay. And i’m small, so people really kind of leave me alone. I admire troublemakers. I like things to be shaken up. It’s a school during you call a pot stirring okay? During, right? Something that pops. Not so much troublemaker. All right, i’ll call you troublemaker. You call yourself a buster? How does the occupy movement do? Just we just have about two minutes left. What’s your assessment of them. I think that, uh, i think it’s fascinating. I think they did a great job of turning out. Ah, lot of people. But i think of that kind of organizing tony like a pointillist painting. It’s one dot and it’s going to take a lot of dots over a lot of time for that thing to mature. It’s. Not over yet. It’s just in its infancy ilsen. Fine. I hope you’re going to come back. My pleasure, i hope. It’s been my pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much. Alison. Fine. Her latest. My pleasure. Her latest book, the network non-profit co authored with beth cantor. You confined it. Amazon. You can find it at barnes and noble and on twitter, she’s a fine thankyou again, alison. My pleasure, tony talking. We’re gonna go away when we come back. Tony’s, take two about some charity registration technicalities and then social media boundaries with jean takagi. Stay with me. Ditigal lending the dude in the good ending, you’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving. Nothing. Cubine are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Hi, i’m ostomel role, and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour. Eleven a m. We’re gonna have fun. Shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re going invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a. M on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Lively conversation. Top trends and sound advice. That’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m janna agger’s, senior vice president, products and marketing from blackbaud. Dahna and i’m tony martignetti tony martignetti non-profit radio time for my take to taxes are on everybody’s mind april fifteenth coming up so i’m talking about the tax form that charity’s fill out the nine, ninety and between that form and one of its schedules, there are two questions that probe your offices compliance with state charity registration laws, which i always think is interesting that’s a federal agency questioning whether you’re complying with state laws. It’s not a good idea too fudge on those questions because you’re nine, ninety assigned by an officer under penalty of perjury. So you want to be conscious of your compliance with those registration laws in each state where you are soliciting donations, it’s not enough to just be registered in your home state if you are soliciting in other states. The post on my block is irs continues inquiry on charity registration compliance the block is that tony martignetti dot com and that is tony’s take two for friday, the twelfth of april fifteenth show of the year jean takagi is with me he’s, our regular legal contributor to the principal at neo non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco he edits the popular non-profit law blogged dot com, and he is at gi tak gt. A k on twitter. Jean takagi, welcome back. Thanks, sonny. How you doing? I’m doing well, pleasure to have you back, it’s, good to talk to you. We don’t want to need to set some boundaries around social media. Why do we need more than just sort of usage guidelines? Well, let me first get some of your opening comments, tony, dark days when you’re a lawyer. Oh, yes. So you have a song about just go i jean i you know, i i love that you love the practice of law, it did not do for me what it does for you, but i appreciate that, tony, it definitely isn’t for everyone. And i heard alison’s comments as well about lawyers finding uncertainty unsettling on probably being deal breakers and, well, now i don’t think she said, did you say deal breakers? I know should i sort of added okay, well, let’s, not let’s, not put words in my mouth because defamation is one of things we’re going to talk about your there we go. So part of the reason why you need you need rules in this game. And so i actually agree with ours that lawyers do find uncertain uncertainty unsettling, and we can sometimes be deal breakers, which are my words and part of the reason why is that? Because if we give advice, tio some organizations and, you know what, consultant were to give that advice and has ninety nine percent effectiveness and ninety nine percent of the organisation it works really well, there is that one percent it might not work well point, and they might actually get in trouble using that advice with the lawyer we can’t afford to do that. We’ve got to make sure that we’re protecting one hundred percent, which means we can’t quite be is aggressive in some ways in other ways we can let organizations and our clients know how we can empower them to let them know what is okay to do and that they should feel comfortable doing it, that it may be part of theirs, their duties in terms of furthering their mission in order to engage in those things. So that’s one of the reasons why, why we wantto have rules so there’s a better understanding of how to play this game of using social media. And, you know, i think, tony, when you play any game, we should read the rules first, right? They understand what you’re doing. My favorite game is monopoly. I don’t like other players to read. The rules just, you know, yeah, i know. And then and then, you know, i have a good eye use the rules of sort of guidelines, and then, you know, i’ll borrow a little from the bank and things like that, you know, at below and at below market rates and things like that let’s go actually into a couple of those things that you talked about borrowing money from the bank, okay? Let’s say, you know, we organize this nationwide effort and have our volunteers go out and create different events fund-raising events in, uh, in different locations throughout the country, on behalf of our organization and furthering our movement. Well, let’s say, we’ve got ten of these things going on in seven go really well, can we gene, can we taken example? I’m thinking of ah, move on dot or ge, they are frequently get their emails, attend an event in manhattan or the bronx or, you know, can somebody in well, they know that i’m in new york, so they don’t ask me to host elsewhere, but they’re certainly doing these things throughout the country. Yeah, and a lot of organizations are now using facebook and and other platforms toe mobilize their supporters throughout the country, right? Okay, so, you know, let’s, say it’s an organization that’s like move on that that’s got a nationwide presence with a lot of supporters throughout, and they’ve got some active people in different locations again, let’s say they’re ten events and seven go without a hitch and raise a lot of money for the organization. But one of the things you asked and when the things you talked about your take two is, are they registered in those states in which the volunteers there suddenly engaging in these fund-raising activities? Because if they’re not, that can get them into trouble, right? Tony, i think you know better than anybody it can is the now the volunteer yeah, they’re volunteer is acting as an agent of the of the organization at that point. Or is that? Is that a question? I think that’s a question and, you know, the more that the organization is telling the volunteer on how to organize the event and what rules should apply to the event and how the money should be collected and forwarded to the charity, i think it looks more and more like it the organization’s event and charity registration has got to be something that considered okay. Now i’m skirting jargon jail. We haven’t talked about jack in jail for weeks. I’m disappointed too many. My guests are plain talking, plain language. I don’t like that like abstruse language talks over everybody’s head. So why don’t you help define define for me? Because i said, are they an agent, but that that actually is a term of art has legal import, doesn’t it? Yeah, so generally an agent is acting on the authority and on behalf of the principal. So if i ask, skew tony and you are except that you’re going to make a donation on my behalf, another charity and i give you the money to make that donation. You’re acting as my agent, your not making your own donate donation of money. You’re donating the money on my behalf. You have certain responsibilities by taking on that relationship. I’m the agent and you’re the principal in that example, correct. So if the charity tells a volunteer agent to start fund-raising them and organizing an event on their behalf, then it’s really the charities event and the volunteers acting as their agent, which means the charity has responsibilities in that jurisdiction. Okay, okay, so the other things that you raised is, well, what if somebody just took off with the money? But if you’ve got a volunteer there but you have no staff presents there and you don’t really know this volunteer, you just sort of engaged with them online, and all of a sudden they’re holding this event for you, and they take off with the money. Now, what happened? What did you do? What? What? Showing a reasonable care did you take to make sure something like that wouldn’t happen then the awful thing is, what if somebody gets hurt at this event and right? And now in this case, it doesn’t even have to be an event that is a solicitation event like maybe we’re just we’re just rallying the troops, but we’re not asking for any money we’re not soliciting, just trying to maybe we’re all watching a video together or it’s some, you know, kind of activist activity, but but no money is changing hands. Go ahead. So something else could happen. Yeah, exactly. Right. So whether it’s just being an educational event, uh and you’ve got some people out there, they’re gathered together under the charity’s name and you know, they’ve gotten together and maybe there weren’t any steps, teo, prevent some risks or maybe it’s like a walkathon, so maybe it is a solicitation event that’s part fun solicitation, but there weren’t these risk management steps that were looked at charity. The cherry didn’t really take any step to make sure that no harm’s could be prevented that were reasonably foreseeable possibilities of that. So those are things that charities have to think about when they start to mobilize their supporters are are the supporters holding their own events? In which case do do those people after register in order to fund raise for another charity? That might be an issue as well? Or is it the charity’s own event, in which case the charity’s got to think about registration and also creating rules of the game again that have to do with holding that event to make sure that the people who attend or the people who have money get solicited are protected? I’ve got two troublemakers on the show today you’re a lot of trouble, gene, you’re asking a lot of questions? Let’s, try toe help with some answers. What? What? What do you know? Right now, we know what we have to think about, but what are we going to do should we not be hosting these events? Or is it cannes insurance help or we need we need written regulations about what volunteers khun do in other places. Where we supposed to do? Yeah, i think we’ve got to figure out first two’s event is it? Is it the charities event? Or is it the individuals that are gathering together that are raising funds on their own? And if they’re raising funds are their own? Are they going to get in trouble? And should we try to help them understand what their responsibilities are in what limitations there are for them to start raising money on their own without being under the umbrella, if you will, of the charity so rules of the game, first who’s event is it, and if the charity has authorized and encouraged it, it should try to protect those people who are going teo organize the event as well as those people were going to attend the event and having rules there instead of just guidelines makes perfect sense to me, you know, you you’re not allowed to, uh, you know, serve alcohol to minors may may seem, you know, very simplistic and obvious, but sometimes when you’ve got volunteers who you’re unaware of, you’ve not screamed, not interviewed them. Um, you’ve got to be really explicit about what’s, okay? And what’s not okay, even if you think it’s obvious. So rules of the game and rules of the event, i think there’s something that you have tohave in-kind also have some people, you know, on the charities staff that or they’re volunteers, if they’re in all volunteer organization really think about risk management of that event, what risks are involved? And should we take steps like having a first date? You know, kid available or having some people there are having a written release and waiver of liability form that all event participants find those air things to think about? And then the charity registration thing on top of that, if it’s an event of any significance, i think you have to really seriously think about that and probably by your book, tony. Okay, or have me register for you. There you go. Now what if the agent doesn’t follow the rules, then? Is the organization protected at least? Well, maybe, maybe not, but what could i have got any colonization playing the agent and sue the agent? But whoever got hurt from that if its a charity, that man is going to kind of everybody. And if the charity has a deeper pocket than the agent and if it’s, you know, just day ah, volunteer who may not have ah, a lot of that worth and the charity may have a deeper pocket, and the plaintiff lawyer will go after the charity in that case and if they’re not register stirred on top of all of this in that state, it’s going to look even worse for the charity in terms of saying, well, you know, we tried our best, and we just didn’t you didn’t weigh had rules, but but the the solicitation was illegal because the charity wasn’t registered in the state. That looks bad. Yeah, your insurance company might, even if you have insurance might say, well, you’re operating illegally. We don’t ensure that well, okay, uh, okay. So we we strayed a little bit from social media, but that’s fine, because we’re talking about events which might be propagated through social media. What about more directly, you know, the advocacy advocacy online? Sure, i mean, i guess he’s a big thing for for non-profits and i’m just a big proponent of non-profits engaging in a lot of advocacy to further their their mission, but social media channels again allow, you know, a lot of questions to rise, like whose message is being sent? You know, we’ve allowed staff members and volunteers in this kind of followship model that that alison is describing in and where everybody’s is contributing, are you going to be sending conflicting messages? And are some of those messages going toe actually be attributed to the organization and not be a communication of the type that the organization is allowed to do? Like an election eri and communication worth jargon jail right durney election hearing endorsing a political candidate which a five a one c three cannot do, but an individual can do so it gets a little grey when an individual uses an account that has the organisation’s name somehow attached, whose account is it? And is that communication? Ok, ok, but what about i mean, alison was sort of seeking feedback from from the community, i mean suppose someone uses their own account to post something on the organization’s facebook page or or points ah, address is a post on twitter to the organization that i mean that’s what the person’s using their own account? Yeah, i mean, would that be ok, though? That’s the organization is not responsible for that one, is it? Even if it’s just on their facebook pages, somebody else posted it? Well, let’s think about that. What? What if it was a really defamatory statement against somebody? Or what if it was endorsing a candidate for political office, tony and the organization has control of that facebook pages being able to delete that comment out of there, should they do it? Or should they just let it sit there? My my feeling is conservatively, you’re going to want to delete something that would be illegal if the charity had posted it itself. Obviously, you don’t want to show opinions and participation of your supporters on the facebook page, but you don’t want, you know, people the flame or defame others, and you certainly don’t want, uh, charity metoo attributed with endorsing candidates or engaging in some sort of private benefit that that benefit thie organizations, insiders. Those can all get the organization into a lot of trouble. We’ve got to go away for a couple of minutes. When we come back, jean run, and i will keep talking about the social media boundaries. And i’ve got some live listener love for the korean peninsula. Stay with us. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Latto are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Altum have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Welcome back on io haserot for soul, young son and day, john korea on your haserot. Dahna. As i said last week, especially south korea, in our thoughts, lots of saber rattling, you know, i saw i saw seventy something interviewed, and he said, the north is just like a schoolyard bully. It’s, no big deal. Andan. I saw a twenty something interviewed, who said she was nervous and pays attention to where exits are. When she’s, when she’s in buildings. So, anyway, are our thoughts are with you, south korea jane. Let’s, let’s see about okay, so let’s, continue with this online. The all these questions about online your you think that? Ah, non-profit should delete things that it wouldn’t be able to print or ah, post itself on, say, facebook or twitter? Yeah, i think it depends on the channel that you’re using. Sometimes you’ve got listservs where you’ve got a charity, that’s decided not to moderate the contact content, but put in disclaimers that might be one set of rules that applies. But with your facebook account, i think you’ve got to be be careful, especially if it’s a page that’s under the control of the charity, if their comments on there again, that would be hurtful to the charity or hurtful toe. Others that’s something that you might think about the leading, and if it’s obviously going to be in violation of of laws, you’re going to want to report it. You know, it’s against facebook zone privacy or policies as well, but to protect the organization, i think that’s really important, and that gets into what we were talking about earlier about defamatory statements, um, could also be is like harassment? Yeah, absolutely. So you’ve got to be careful, there’s. Some sometimes employees or even managers will use social media channels now to communicate with their people that report to them and got to be very, very careful that they’re not sending messages that if they communicated in real life or by email. This is not all of a sudden. Better because it’s being broadcast on social media. Aren’t there also issues around posting other people’s content? Either me either an excerpt or even just linking to it let’s talk about that? Yeah, it’s a great question. Tony gets a little bit confusing when we’re talking about copyrights on copyright protection there a lot of non-profits out there that are just accepting from other sites and thinking that as long as you attribute that that source that it’s okay, and that might not just be content written content, but that could be photos and music as well. The company presentation, you got to be careful because somebody else owns that content, and just because they’ve published it on the web doesn’t mean they’ve given free permission for anybody else to copy and use it so that can get organizations into trouble. There are some some exceptions for fair use, uh, which might involve charity or commentary or criticism on sometimes for non-profit educational purposes, but that can get really big. Ah non-profits really want to know what they’re doing when they are borrowing or accepting content from other sites or from other individuals, and then suddenly posting it on their own and again, even with attribution that that may not be sufficient. Yeah, attribution doesn’t hear it. So you’ve got to make sure that either you’ve gotten written permission to use that content or you’re using it in a fair way that would not create an infringement liability issue. Okay, but those fair, those fairways, those those are the exceptions that you were talking about in fair use and they’re pretty pretty well defined. Well, not so well defined. Well, ok, they’re specific categories. Yeah, and they’re definitely enforced in different ways in different jurisdictions. So if you just read, you know, website resource on fair use don’t rely on that, but i do encourage all non-profits if you are borrowing or accepting or commenting on other people’s content and putting it up on your own sites to make sure you understand what the rules are, so do look some good, you know, reputable web resources for that and then move on from there in california, we’ve got an organization called public counsel that’s got excellent information on copyright and fair use, and i think other other states organisations could probably look at that stuff as well, because some of the state laws will be similar and just get a general idea of what the rules are and that’s a public counsel c o u n c l e that’s, right. Okay, just a couple of minutes left before we have to go away. Gene. So if there is a violation or something you’re you’re just concerned about you talked about deleting the post, what else should we be conscious of? Well, i think the important thing, especially on a governance levels way talk about board board duties now, tony is the board to develop a social media policy for the organization, so now they think and delegate the drafting out to management, but to have a social media policy and to make sure that everybody using social media on behalf of the organization understands what the rules are and what the risks are, because those those volunteers and supporters want to do good things for the organisation for its missions, they don’t want to go get the organization into trouble, but what happens is oftentimes they just don’t know what the rules and risks are, so educating them through a policy have guidelines for sure, but also have solid rule in place that don’t allow them to. Do things that would violate the law think that’s critical, just like thirty seconds left. Jean how about apologizing on the site where the violation occurred? Sometimes i can work, some sometimes can get you into more trouble, so you know, sometimes you’re just during the pot even more tomorrow how allison’s, where then? And that can create more more divisions, so it sort of look at it on a case by case basis. Look, a senior management, the american red cross put out a tweet before that says this was a rogue treat that says, when we drink, we do it right getting withered. This was a mistake, somebody using their personal account and thought they thought they were using their personal count. Instead, the american red cross account american red cross immediately came up with an apology that said, we’ve deleted the road treat, but rest assured the red cross this sober and we’ve confiscated the keys, humor, apology and everything worked out just fine. All important points to keep in mind. Social media is not just a wild west gene takagi principle of neo, you’ll find his block at non-profit law blogged dot com, you’ll find him. On twitter at gt a kg tech gene, thank you very much. My pleasure to talk to you again next month. Got some final live listener love teo taiwan we don’t know the city, but taiwan welcome and ni hao next week a conversation with amy sample ward reduction part do we’re talking about her new book co authored book social change? Anytime everywhere we started last month and there’s more to cover about your fund-raising calendar and social media. Andi, i’m hoping for a special appearance by tim amy’s, dad hoping we can get him to call in like to have a little fun with tim sample we’re all over the social web can’t make a click without lador a spark a testa trying to say, smacking your head hard into tony martignetti non-profit radio pinterest for example, i’ve got boards for the show and my blogged my favorite board on pinterest, though that i’ve got is women leading non-profits lots of videos of female non-profits ceos like abby falik of global citizen year and marry in wright edelman of the children’s defense fund. If you can suggest some that are missing, please do our creative producer is claire. Meyerhoff sam liebowitz is our line producer, but not today. Today, the line producer is janice taylor. We don’t have an assistant producer, but we struggled through. Janis filled both roles. 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You’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays, one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology no reality, in fact, its ideology over in tow. No more it’s time for action. Join me, larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what you’re born. Teo you society, politics, business it’s, provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic. I want to go what’s. Really going on? What does it mean? 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134: IRS Sale In Aisle 403(b) & Compensation Clarity – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Evan Giller, partner at Giller & Calhoun

Gene Takagi & Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.com

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent you know me, i’m your aptly named host it’s friday, march twenty second i very much hope that you were with me last week don’t let me hear that you missed gary vaynerchuk. Gary shared insights and inspiration from his body of work and his book the thank you economy and amy sample ward and i talked about kindness, criticism and on honest online conversations this week i rs sale in aisle four o three b evan giller, founding member of the law firm of giller and calhoun, explains the i r s is fifty percent off the penalty sale for four o three b retirement plans that are not in compliance. Many plans are not up to code, and this is the year to fix those problems. We’ll talk about the common mistakes and what to do. Also compensation clarity a regular legal contributors jean takagi and emily chan of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group answer these questions how do you determine what’s reasonable compensation for executives? What happens if comp is excessive? What’s the automatic penalty that kicks in if you don’t disclose benefits plus, we’re going to do aboard role play, and we’ll see who chairs that meeting. This is from the non-profit radio vintage collection last october was a very good month between the guest today on tony’s take to my podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy that i do monthly fund-raising fundamentals, some details about that, my pleasure now to welcome evan giller he’s, a founding member of the law firm of giller and calhoun he’s worked on employee benefit plan issues, including retirement and executive compensation plans for over twenty years. He has extensive experience in plan, design and compliance and is a contributing author to the four o three b answer book. I’m very glad that his expertise bring us two brings him to the studio. Evan giller, welcome well, thankyou, tony, and very happy to be here. Pleasure. We’re all our lawyers, all lawyers and compliance issues today, but i’m going to keep you all of you on the straight, narrow, um, let’s start very basic so that we know that everybody i can figure out where they have a four o three b or they don’t. What is a four o three? B plan k so four o three b plan is a retirement plan that is only available to tax exempt organizations, not for-profit organizations or teo governmental organizations that are that are educational organizations like k through twelve public schools and state local universities and colleges. Okay, so the the reason that four o three b is in the code is because those types of organizations were deemed to need a very simple, fairly cheap way of providing retirement benefits to their employees. Now a tax exempt a charity could have, and we’re our audiences. The five oh one. See threes, no small and midsize charities. They could have some other kind of retirement plan for their employees. That that’s. Exactly correct. Until recently. Well, when i said recently, probably about the last twenty years, these types of organizations could not have a four. Oh, one k, but that’s not true anymore. They can have a four. Oh, one k as well or what’s known as a qualified for a one a plan. And i will keep the jargon to a minimum. A surgeon general has i know. Okay, is the rule but the ah that’s. A plan that although it’s under different section of the code looks kind of the same. It allows the employer to put in money on behalf of the employees accumulate amount that they could get when they when they were tired. Okay, so we have the former one case before oh, for a one. A cz. But we’re talking today about the four. Oh, three bees. Okay, what is the problem with some? I think maybe lots ofthe four o three b retirement plans. Right. So if i can i give you a little history here, please. On dh. We could go back far into the depths of the sun. Not too far from the nine hundred right? Stick by nineteen. Yes. Yes. But these plans were set up originally because it was perceived that college college professors could not retired because they don’t have enough teo enough money to retire on. And so these plans were set up, much like individual plans. Sort of like ira’s today. Individual annuity contracts were issued to the participants in the plans to the college professors. Ultimately, they were expanded to cover all five. Twenty three’s and these, you know, governmental educational organizations. And they were very lightly regulated for many years. And i should say that there are really two important regulators were talking about. As you said, we’re talking about the irs. We’re also talking about the department of labor and department labor also regulates these plans. And in the last since since nineteen, eighty six and on both of these organizations have decided that the four three v world was too big, too much like the wild west, but too big and needed to be increasingly regulated. Okay, so the plans became popular so popular that regulators got concerned about them. That’s, right? They became large, you know, with large for large tax exempt have giant plans on dso. The regulators did get concerned about them and wanted to make sure that they were being operated properly. Okay, because the ultimate concern is that we want to have money for the retirees that are participating in these plans. Exactly. And the other concern is that the three irises also two rules thes rules. Are they so the quid pro quo for the tax benefit that you get out of these plants? And the irs wanted to make sure that these rules were being followed. Properly. Okay, so rules are not being followed, and we have ah, we’ll get to this. But we have ah, we have a period where you can save some money on penalties for not following the rules. But what? What’s? The main problem is the, er, the plan’s. Right? So, okay, that’s, you and i introduce it, but you talk us through it. So the overarching issue here is that until two thousand nine, under the under the irs is rules. These plans weren’t required to have a document, a written plan that they had to follow, and a lot of these plans had they didn’t not have anything. But they had very sketchy documents because actually on the department of labor side, you were supposed to have a document as well. But nobody was looking too closely at it. And this is a document that it describes how your plan is goingto operate, right? So the document is you very often very detailed and it’s exactly how the planets to us to operate and also contains all the iris requirements. So in two thousand nine, thie iris the i recited set a deadline that by two thousand, by january first, two thousand nine every four three b plan with very narrow exceptions had to have this written document. This is the increased regulation that you were talking about it we’ll start to see. Okay, right. You had that january deadline, right? January two thousand nine deadline, right? And actually, in december of two thousand eight, justice everyone was scrambling to complete this deadline. The iris actually given extension to the entity. That’s. Nice. So it was a busy time for you when you got then you got eleven months. Reprieve. It was a fantastically exciting moment. Yeah, okay. Yeah, well, you were able to enjoy your holiday. It was in two thousand eight, although it wasn’t looking like you were going to exactly. Okay, so did they wait until december thirty first? They know one thousand deo, but was close. It was it was in the first week in december. It wass e-giving months. They like to suspense. Yeah. Yeah. So the but that deadline the end of two thousand nine came and went and held. And so all four o three b plants again. There are some very narrow exceptions. Had to have this written document adopted a formally by the organization by december thirty first, two thousand nine if you didn’t do that, you’re out of compliance. Your plan theoretically, the plan could be deemed to be failed failed very bad result. A failed plan means that all the money in it all of the contracts in that plan will be taxable. The contracts are all the all your employees that’s, right? Ok, that’s, right? So the so the danger of being out of compliance is what what’s what’s your employees going to suffer, they’re going to have a very bad tax consequence, and they go and they’re going to look to you as the employer, and they’re going to say, why did this happen? So the irs doesn’t like to invoke this nuclear penalty on plans very much disqualifying the disqualifying, pluck us, right? And so for a number of years, they have worked on a program that allows plans, and not just for three plants, but all kinds of retirement plans to correct errors so they don’t get disqualified. All right, so you were supposed to have been been had your plan document by december of two thousand nine, but since then they’ve been working. Tio get people into compliance because they know there are a lot that that didn’t make that deadline. That’s, right? Ok. And so they have said that the to the extent that you have failed to adopt, if you that you failed to adopt your plan on time by that deadline now att the end of last year they came out with a program the irs did. That said you khun submit ah, a plan document to the irs. Now pay a penalty and you will be absolved of having failed to meet the original deadline. Yes, you’re absolved. You brought into the fold. You’ll come to the flock, we will absolve you, but you have to pay a penalty. You are deemed to have to be in compliance. We have to pay a penalty. Okay. Okay. And that gets us to the fifty percent off no sale. So in two thousand and thirteen, if you have that one mistake and you could have other mistakes. But if you that one mistake that you veiled the plan document failed to adopt the plan document of time and you go in through this program, the irs is cutting the penalties in half for the course of the year. There’s. Your fifty percent off sale. It’s a sale. Okay, wei have just about a minute or so before before we take a little break. What? What needs to be? Well, first of all, you have to have your document, and then it has to be the documents to be correct. Is that right? Well, the actually when you go through this program, the irs is not going to give you an opinion as to whether the documents correct that’s. Another disney that’s. Another the process that we can talk about. You hear the irs just wants to see you have your organization has formally adopted the document. Okay, okay, all right. Why don’t we take that break? And when we come back, evan giller stays with me. He’s, a founding member of the law firm of giller and calhoun. We’re talking about the irs sale in aisle four o three b. Stay with us. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you confused about which died it’s, right for you? Are you tired of being tired? How about improving your energy strength and appearance home? I’m rika keck, holistic nutrition and wanda’s consultant. If you have answered yes to any of my questions, contact me now at n y integrated health dot com, or it’s, six for six to eight, five, eight five eight eight initiate change and transform your life. Are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications. That’s, the hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com durney welcome back, i wish i could send live listener love, but we are pre recorded its a few weeks before march twenty seconds. I can’t send live listener love, but you know that we do love our live listeners. Evan, you and i are talking about i’m goingto introduce something to save you from jargon jail because you probably wouldn’t set it this way. I like to i like, i like this the v c p for e p c r s is now we’re talking about the v c p for epi crs way r and i’m glad i didn’t say that you wouldn’t have because your prison well, i mean, sorry, practicing attorney or not, you know, jargon jail is open for you and would have had quite an impact when the board of bar examiner’s or the new york state bar association found out about your felony jargon jail. So i’m doing it v c p for epc rs what does that mean? Okay, so those air to acronyms that that describe the this correction program that we’re talking about s o a p c r s is the is the acronym for the overarching program the employees plan compliance resolution system. Thank you. S oh, every wrote that down, but known affectionately as cpc arrest everybody. And v c p is the one of the components of it voluntary correction program and that’s important that that one, though, is important too. Spend a little time what those words mean because it means that you’re turning yourself into the irs. You have found an error, and you’re turning yourself into the irs to correct that error for a reduced amount of a fee. But it’ll be lower than if they caught you. Right? Fifty percent lower, you know, know that something else is fifty percent. Is the sale on the v c p fee for this year? For that? For that non non compliance ever that we talked about? Okay, but in general document, right, but forgetting about this year forgetting with percent off if the irs catches you in violation, it’s going to cost you more than if you turn yourself in now. Really? That’s the basic theory. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Um all right. So we know that the dangers if you’re if you haven’t adopted your plan document and there and i realize there are other things that could be wrong with your four three beer. We’re gonna have time to talk about those two. You have top five, evans top five, but so far now we’re just talking about not having adopted your plan document by the two thousand nine deadline. Um, your employees will face taxation. You’ll be embarrassed. Your planned disqualified there’s penalties for that? Of course, if the irs finds it. Okay, so what do we do now? If we we haven’t adopted our plan document. How do we enter this thiss rehabilitation program? So the irs has come out with a kit, actually, a compliance kit on blast. Three weeks or so. That takes you through all of the steps that you need to follow in order to get into this program and submit and get. Okay. And this is your doing. This is an outpatient, right? You’re not inpatient rehabilitation, right? That it’s? Yeah, that you basically are it’s all by the male, you know, you send in a document, sent it. But there are a bunch of forms that you that you need to fill out on dh sometimes, you know, you might find that you there kind. Of complicated there, an irs speak and you may want a little help but basically it’s a set of forms that you sent in with your document on proof that your plan has been adopted. Okay, now, what needs to be in this document, this plant? What is in what the parts yet so for three b document has to contain, at the very least, all of the requirements in that code section for four o three b flat. So what does that include that includes limitations on contributions that the irs provide requires? In other words, the irs says you can’t put in a zillion dollars for some rich. I mean, you the employee the employer can play okay. Limits on contributions. Ok? And those of of your listeners who are friendly with four three plans no, actually, one of the one of the most valuable and appealing aspects of it. His salary reduction contributions by employees where you put in money on a salary on it before tax basis into the plan. Just like four. Oh, one k plan and their limits on that as well. And those very strict limits on how much, how much input in direct, which in two thousand thirteen and seventeen thousand five hundred dollars okay, there are requirements that everybody in the organization has an opportunity to make those contributions on it before tax basis it’s called, and i know i’m sorry, i may be skinning a songs you define your jargon, i maybe yes, i’m you’re just skirting just but you won’t, right? You won’t be entered. So it’s called the universal availability rule, which means that, as sort of a zit says sounds that everybody in the organization with again narrow exceptions has to be allowed to make these contributions on it before tax basis. You can’t, they can choose. So this is who you invite to participate in your for three d plan, right? And you have to let them know that they’ve got that opportunity. You can’t keep it a secret on, believe it or not, i’ve seen some cases where they just the employer hasn’t told employees that they’re able to do that. Okay, so there’s that there’s their requirements for taking money out of the plan. They’re called minimum distribution requirements. When you get to be aged seventy and a half, you have to take out. A certain amount, because the iris really doesn’t want you dying with that money to pass it on to the next generation, same age at which you have to start your mandatory required distribution for ira that’s. Exactly right, it’s the same rule. Okay, it seems okay, there are there are other types of what it called nondiscrimination rules. You can’t give a lot of money to the top management a t the on give a lot less money to the rank and file give way give i’m sorry. I mean, make contributions to the plan at a higher level to the top management versus the rank and file. Okay, so they’re not discrimination. Discrimination on exactly can’t discriminate in favor of highly compensated people. Okay, so because this sounds like a very interesting. Now you draft these documents i’m way d’oh, d’oh! It’s good that there are people who enjoy the details of this it’s interesting to me, but i don’t have to write them so but what has to be in there is interesting. What? What? What are the little pieces? Should be so one of the things and this sort of bleeds over into you know things. That can go wrong. I mean, one of the ways these one of the things that you want to put in this document is let let’s say your plan says, were we the employees? They actually the employer i was going to make contributions on behalf of employees of five percent of compensation? That’s a typical plan or ten percent of compensation? You need to define compensation very, very carefully, it’s an area where there are a lot of errors, so some some places don’t want to include let’s say, bonuses some employers don’t want include bonuses some don’t want include overtime in the school world. They don’t want to pay perhaps coaches who get extra money for for coaching. So there is a very easy it’s, very easy to make an error in the way you write out your compensation definition, and then your plan is wrong you’re you’re making contributions on the wrong definition of company, okay? And as you said earlier, the irs is not passing on the correctness or the adequacy of your plan document under this under this correction plan under this period that we have, they’re just making sure that you have a plan. Adopted that’s, right? That under this very narrow piece that we’re talking about now, if you find other errors, let’s say you have the wrong definition of compensation, for instance, and you’ve discovered this. You can go in now, you can go in too. V c p okay, and you can say, hey, we found a mistake. We want to correct it in the correction programme for voluntary correction program under e p c r s and we we don’t, you know, we know we’ve made a mistake, we want to fix it and we’re going to fix it, and then you pay a fee on dh you tell the iris this is how we’re going to fix it now maybe you fix it by giving some people some additional money because you’re definitely comp it definition of compensation said that that you actually should have put in more money, for your definition was too low. There’s added compensation, which means added contribution by the employer correct, right? But now the fee that you paid this is not eligible for the fifty percent off correct only for adopting your plan that’s, right by well, failing to adopt the plan and correcting it. Failing to adopted on time, which was december thirty first, two thousand. Thie only place where you got that little sale. Okay, right? Let’s. See, how long does this does? V c p for the for the plan. Adoption correction. How long does that last? Is it just this year, or do we know? Well, dcp will be indefinite. Okay, cp, that fifty percent is just this year, but they but the process of going into v c p that’s an indefinite program that will be open for a long time. And and actually, there are other programs that the irs they’re going to know that it has said that they’re going to introduce that will work with the cp that will affect forthe brovey plans that this basically this area is evolving. Okay, okay. What is this? You get fifty percent off the penalty. What is the penalty based on how much is it? The penalty is based on the size of the number of employees that you have in the plan. So there’s a there’s a schedule? Um, and it starts at the very low end. It’s? About seven hundred fifty dollars, for really small plans. The penalty penalty. That’s the file gods called the filing fee. They could go into v c p but the penalty and it goes all. The way up to about twenty five thousand dollars if you’ve got a giant plan of ten thousand employees or more. Okay, so it’s based on the number of employees in your plan, is how much you’ll pay for filing fee euphemistically a filing fee, but you’ll get half off that if you’re if you’re adopting your plan newly in two thousand thirteen. Thirty right? If he’s missed the deadline and and this and you do that this year, okay? And that’s, your only issue, you know, if you’re going in with two issues, you know or three issues he found what? Look, i made a couple of other mistakes then that’s fulfill rate, but oh, you can’t piggyback you can’t pick you. You can slide in getting the plan adoption and then add a couple and quietly you’ve got a lot of other errors in quietly, you know? You know, tony have to wake up pretty early in morning to fool the irs. What? You okay? So suppose you adopt your plan, get the fifty percent off on that. And then later on, two months later or two weeks later, then you found other errors in your plan. You could do that, but actually it’s no point, because because the way the cp works and this is a good thing, you don’t pay anymore. If you’ve got one error with exception of this half off thing, you don’t pay anymore if you’ve got one hour or twelve hours, so you may as well just get him all fixed. Oh, so you’ll still get the fifty percent off on the plan. Adoption? Well, the penalty, but you’ll pay full freight on the other. Well, except that what will come out to is what if let’s say, if you go in, you failed to adopt and you’ve got two of the mistakes you’re just trying to game the system. You are, you are. But i guess they think the irs is a step ahead, right? It’s kind of embarrassing teo to sort of sum it up. The only way you get the fifty percent office is if you go in without one mistake that you failed to adopt the plan on time. That one mistake, that one was that the only way you get fifty percent off he’s going with two mistakes, you don’t have to pay the right, but what? Happens if you come in later with the second most? Well, then you’re paying one and a half times, right? You paying the fifty percent and then you’re paying a full fee. So why would you do that? You follow him saying so in other words, the if you if you buy for kate at the way you’re suggesting, then you’re paying fifty percent now and then you’re paying one hundred percent later. If you do both together now, you’re only paying on the feast get the penalty schedule is the same for the different. Oh, i thought maybe they were different now exgagement for different types of errors. No. Same. Okay, so okay. They thought of that. Okay. Um evan gillers, a founding member of the law firm of giller. G i l l e r and calhoun c l h o u n you’ll find them at giller calhoun dot com. Sounds like you should be out in the wild west. I don’t know oklahoma or wyoming. Just that. Calhoun. Well, you know, calhoun happens to be based in denver, so you’re not that far off. Really? Yeah. So this is you have two offices in new york. And denver okay, let’s spend time talking about some of the other errors that that maybe in your plan, you have top five and i think we’ve alluded to some of them, but we’ll make them make them explicit. What are let’s, let’s? Just get started. What what’s? The most common error that you see in in four three b plan. So you know, the most common error that we see again without without getting too deep into the weeds on that? Don’t worry, i’ll stop. You will stop, right? Okay, i’ll get lost, and then i won’t let you lose others. I said earlier that there are two regulators. One is the irs. One is the department of labor and department of labor. Is those those people who are at all involved retirement plans? We’ll know the dreaded a risa word. Arisa is the statute that governs were governed in play that you are, say, e r i s retirement income security act. Very excellent. Okay, okay, so the actual the most common error that we find actually isn’t a risa era and not an internal revenue code error and it’s worth mentioning because it’s a common error and it’s a serious error, okay? And that is when if you have a plan that allows employees to put money in on us on an elective deferral of salary reduction basis before tax basis like we were talking about before you have an obligation to send that money to the insurance company or the mutual fund for using mutual funds very quickly. You can’t sit on that money and let it sit in your bank account and say, you know, i’ll get to it in a couple of weeks. Really, even a couple weeks is not is too long. Yes, a couple of weeks, it will almost always be too long. Yeah, and in this day and age of automatic peril zsystems the department of labor thinks that two weeks is almost you could almost never justify. Okay, so what happens is that people get a little careless sometimes, and maybe the payroll person goes on vacation or they’re just the processes aren’t aren’t in place and the money sits there, and the and the department of labor thinks that’s a bad violation. They want that money going in quickly, because when the money doesn’t go on quickly, it doesn’t. It doesn’t experience investment return it’s sitting in your bank account in your theoretically getting interest on it, a zen employer. So the deal doesn’t like that. You need to be very vigilant about getting that money to your insurance company of mutual fund. What if we’re talking about the united states department of labor? We are right where we are. What if just, you know, like you mentioned your payroll person goes on vacation one time you were you were slow because the payroll person was on vacation and when he or she came back, they’d caught the mistake. But it’s been it’s been the two week vacation because they went, you know, they went exotic, maybe south asia or something took two full weeks vacation. Now they’re back. They realize the mistake, it’s only one time is this. Is this a big deal? Well, you know, you actually it’s a great question for a couple of levels. One is we really didn’t. We didn’t talk about this. I mean, there is a we talked a lot about filing with the irs and the fee and through the vc paid. In fact, when you have small violations on the ira side there’s something called self correction where you don’t have to file violations that fit within their their self correction program. Okay, khun, just be fixed without filing and the it means you don’t have to go and you don’t need to their approval. You don’t need to pay them anything. You just fix him and and i and that’s to a certain extent true with the department of labor to in that case, i would not call it a big deal. But i would say that if you found it, you should fix sit fix. It basically means giving the interest that the participants lost in the period of time that the person was on vacation. That two weeks it’s gonna be a tiny amount of money to weeks of interest on one one contribution you gotta give. Give e-giving. Okay, let’s, let’s hit another couple. We have just a couple minutes left zoho common errors. So another error is on dh. This also goes to what needs to be in the plan. There are these limits that the irs imposes upon these plans about how much money could go in in a year you’re mentioned earlier and they’re they’re two separate limits. They kind of work together, but there’s one limit that’s the total amount that can go in as an employer contribution and an employee contribution and there’s a separate limit that could go in as an employee contribution that’s the seventeen thousand five hundred we talked about the total limit is fifty one thousand dollars oversignt pretty little bit per year. Okay, and i’m guessing that the error is miscalculation. Correct the errors, miscalculation and and then there’s also a ah limit on the amount of money of salary that you can take into account in doing the calculations. So in other words, you say ten percent of compensation you can’t consider any amount of compensation above two hundred fifty five thousand dollars, so i’m making five hundred thousand dollars kazama. You know, i’m the executive director most of that much. Almost half of that can’t be included in my contribution. Okay, we have time for just one more top five. So so another another issue is this minimum distribution issue. You know, actually, i’m gonna go really one where i’m going gonna actually go to another one, which i think is probably more important. Which is loans and hardships. Many of these plans allow participants take loans, and they you can take a loan out of your own account and you have to pay it back. General, have to pay it back over five years a little longer if it’s to buy house or a hardship distribution, which is, if you have something really bad happened to you within the rules of the irs. What the irs considers to be really bad, including medical expenses within a sir. Certain limits. If you have a casualty loss, if hurricane sandy was a good example, if you get the house bilich list and what’s the what’s, the trouble with these hardships, they’re not. So the rules for the loans and the hardships are actually quite complicated, and they are often not applied correctly. Okay, we can we can correct these, though. All through v c p the voluntary correction programme. Correct. Okay. All right. Evan giller, founding member of the law firm giller and calhoun at giller. Calhoun dot com. Evan, thank you very much for explaining this. And being a guest. It was my pleasure. Pleasure to have you. Thank you. Right now we go. Away. And when we come back, tony’s, take two, and then compensation clarity with jean takagi and emily chan will stay with me. They couldn’t do anything, including getting ding, ding, ding ding. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Hi, i’m ostomel role, and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour. Eleven a m. We’re gonna have fun. Shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re going invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a. M on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Lively conversation. Top trends, sound advice, that’s. Tony martignetti, yeah, that’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m travis frazier from united way of new york city, and i’m michelle walls from the us fund for unicef hyre. Welcome back time for tony’s take two again were pre recorded this week, so i can’t send live listener love i feel bad about that. I could guess a couple, i’m sure we have listeners from china ni hao and and we’re also we certainly have listeners from tokyo a bit there live listeners from tokyo and i forgot to have tio how teo konichiwa konichiwa for our listeners in japan and taiwan excuse me about taiwan is out there also where in the u s um, north carolina, california, new jersey, new york i hope i bet you’re out there. I’ll bet you’re out there durney stick to this week i wanted just remind you that i host a monthly podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy, and that is called fund-raising fundamentals. And this month i talked to consultant rosetta thurman about thie cycle in charities that causes fundraisers to be dissatisfied with their work and ceos to be dissatisfied with their fundraisers, which leads fundraisers to bail out of jobs all to the detriment of charitable missions. Now we talk with rosette about the causes and what fundraisers khun due to break the cycle and that’s on fund-raising fundamentals? You’ll find it on the chronicle of philanthropy website. You’ll also find it on itunes, and there are links on my blogged at tony martignetti dot com and that is tony’s take two for friday, the twenty second of march twelfth show of the year. I now have a vintage version of non-profit radio. This is compensation clarity with jean takagi and emily chan. Right now we have jean takagi and emily chan on the line. We have them, don’t we both excellent. Jean is principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the popular blogger at non-profit law block, dot com and he’s at g tak gt a k on twitter. Emily chan is an attorney at d’oh and she’s, principal contributor to the non-profit lob log she’s the american bar association’s twenty twelve outstanding young non-profit lawyer and you can follow emily at emily chan at emily c h a n a million gene welcome back. Hi, tony. Hi, tony. Good to have you back. We’re talking this month about compensation because it seems to flow from what emily and i talked about just a couple of weeks ago, so emily, why don’t you? Why don’t you lead us into this from from last month? Sure, so are lots. So he talked about the private benefit rules at at the ad buy squeezed in a very big phrase there the preventable cruise up to the reasonable miss, and we’re going to get not this show, but basically we’re going to look at the penalty that the irish usually while imposed when they find an inappropriate benefit going. Teo insider as we talked about last week, ok, so now we’re really looking at, i guess, practically speaking, the kind of penalties that organizations should be very knowledgeable about and also very wary of so that they could follow the best practices and make sure they’re protecting their organizations. All right, you were cutting out a little bit, emily, but we were able to fix the sound quality. Just say that. Say that. Say that very, very rich and wordy phrase again from from last month that will talk more about just say that again because you cut out a little bit there. Rebuttable presumption of reasonableness. All right, we look forward to getting into that gene. What are the general guidelines? For compensation for and who are we talking about? Whose compensation are we talking about? And what of those general rules? Well, practically speaking, we’re talking about the compensation of the executives, so that would be the executive director or ceo or president, and of the cfo or treasure the organization has compensated, chief financial officer okay? And what are the rules generally, that just that it has to be fair and not excessive, that that’s practically the rule, tony so it can’t be excessive and and the way we try to judge that is we try to look at what comparable organizations air paying, and so the big question is, what is a comparable organization and what is a comparable position to compare? You know who we want to pay to another organization and what what they’re paying, let me throw something interesting at least interesting to me, and maybe you have the legal minds may not find it interesting, but what i do over here, you said it’s only for executives, but what i see in ah lot at colleges and universities, the the highest paid people there are often coaches, sports coach is like a basketball football. Coach at at a big big, you know, big name program, does this this excessive compensation apply to them? Also are on ly to the executives of the organization that’s a great question, tony. Thank you. We’ll bring you back next month. Thank you. Dream the area when we’re talking about big institutions like colleges and universities and healthcare systems and big non-profit hospital, the range of what we call disqualified persons or insiders definitely goes up. People have substantial influence over the organization or a particular segment of that organization. So football coaches will probably be drawn in into that equation when they have a huge influence on on the institution itself. Okay, there are just more general rule beside the what we call the intermediate sanction rule. Their excess benefit transaction rolls the night i go into jargon dale for that. Oh, my god. Yeah. All right. We’re gonna get to that stuff, apparently. And broader doctrines that you could get in trouble for as well. Okay. Broader than just the executive. So it’s so it’s those who can exercise ah, lot of control over the organization, wherever they are, wherever they are in the hierarchy. That’s a good way to think of it. Okay, cool. That’s the late person. I’m gonna turn you, but you wouldn’t know it the way i talk. Okay. Let’s. See, what is this intermediate sanction? Emily what? Intermediate? To what? What’s, the more extreme. So the more extreme penalty comes from the world. We have that last month with private benefit private kermit, we’re technically really the penalty is replication of sabat on that thing’s pretty severe. Especially if a benefit confirmed it was only a little bit more than what it should have been. So what the irs produced then what? Something that they called their intermediate sanctions. Also the excess benefit transaction will which instead of replicating tax exempt status, so actually impose a penalty tax on that access benefits. So it can be suppose both on the insider who benefited. And it usually starts with a twenty five percent penalty talks of the excess amount. But also boardmember should know that they can also be taxed of ten percent of the access amount if they knowingly approve the transaction. Okay, knowingly mean let’s. Just stick with compensation at this point. Let’s not let’s, not get too the xx of benefits we’re just talking about direct compensation, cash, cash compensation. So so boardmember sze, who knowingly approved it meaning meaning they knew that it was excessive, right? So they have actual knowledge of the transaction, and when i use the term access benefit, i don’t mean the stuff on top of what say base salary, just an excess benefit itself, which could be a large compensation o just the way that i used that term in the way that fused with the rules. So um and boardmember, who would be considered knowingly approving such a transaction, would be someone who knows the terms of the transaction. I’m also aware of the possibility that that transaction might be excessive in violation of this excess benefit transactional on and also, you know, failing to make those reasonable tends to figure out whether it is actually excessive, but this goes back to the fiduciary duties of directors and making sure that there, meeting their duty of carrie’s, loves their duty of loyalty and making sure that they’re making informed decisions and that it is in the best interest of the organization by not being something that okay, and we have talked about those those duties those fiduciary duties previously can can these penalties that are levied against boardmember sze can they can they be paid by the organization? I’m generally no. So this would actually be triggered under state law of there are provisions that have to do is indemnification, which is the organization’s ability to cover expenses that would come out to a show like this. They’re being stewed in your capacity as like an officer dirac, the organization and generally that’s. Probably not going to be okay under state law, no matter what. Okay, okay. Let’s. See? Okay, gene let’s, let’s. Turn to you and let’s talk a little about the this the rebuttable presumption of reasonableness that emily mentioned before. What? What what’s that how does that play in here? So these procedures are useful wherever you’re know where you were, you know that you’re going to compensate one of these insiders amount that is not obviously way below market level, but you should go through these procedures just as a general rule. Anyway, if you’re anywhere near paying market rate compensation and their three step, the first step is getting advance approval by the board of directors before you. Enter into that confrontation transaction after the interested party there’s uninterested director in there is going to be compensated abstains from that vote and does not participate in that. Okay. And that would include on executive officer who’s who’s on the board. Because of that position, ex officio boardmember they should they should abstain as well if we’re talking about their compensation. Right? Okay, so you get the advance approval with with the abstention of the person who’s involved what it would else duitz step two is reliance on appropriate comparability data. So we’re looking at comparable salaries from similarly situated organizations for similar positions of similar work. So it’s all about getting the right comparable. It might be done through salary surveys, working with professionals that our salary experts in the non-profit area, or maybe looking at form nine nineties they’re different concerns about just taking other organizations form nine nineties to make sure that the right comparables but a lot of smaller organizations do it that way. What are those? Well, before we go on, what are those concerns about using the nine? Ninety? Well, they might not reflect in the nine, ninety special payments investing of like deferred compensation, though some organizations may look like they’re playing a really high salary, but those were just the result of past things that have been obligations that were paid in the reporting year. So you can’t really consider that a part of the the annual salary, for example, of that executive that showing on the nine, ninety that would not be good. Comparable. Okay, so i mean, can a small charity avoid having to hyre ah, compensation expert to do these comparability surveys? What are the other ways? Or maybe there is no other way. Well, there are some compensation surveys that are out there for free as well. You confined things from charity navigator. And i believe guys start might have some some compensation service for free. You have to be careful, though, because sometimes the ranges of the size of the organization don’t play in your favor. So, you know, they may say, well, this is the average compensation for organizations with annual budget between one million and ten million. And depending upon where you fit in that structure, using the average may not be appropriate for your organization. Right? Okay. Okay. Um and then add a couple more things to the comparability that it’s because you brought a small organization a general rule for organizations with less than one billion and gross receipts toe have at least three comparable so it’s not necessarily there. You know why spread search for comparability data. But tow have three is generally considered reasonable. And another thing to consider is really just giving you an idea of the band wins a salary that’s out there. But it would be problematic for an organisation to just look face purely on numbers and decide ok, just because it fits in the band with that that’s appropriate. I mean, that kind of goes back to your example of the football coaches where sometimes just so skewed that if you keep pushing the upper limit of the band, when you just start to see these ranges leaves up and up and you really do need a look that performance on the duties that are being like that? Yes. Okay, of course. The right, the person’s performance as well. Not just what other people are paying somebody similar in a similar organization. Okay, thanks so much. Thank you. Look at the geography because i know. In manhattan in san francisco, where we are the average salary’s going to be much higher than somewhere in des moines, iowa. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And there’s one more part to the rebuttable presumption. Can you can you explain that in about a minute, gene? Yeah, the third part is just timely. An adequate documentation of the board action. So that means really putting it down in the minutes on getting those minutes approved by the next board meeting. So you just want to make sure that you’ve documented it. And if you’ve got comparable, attach the comparable to the minutes to prove that the board has actually looked at these before making that determination and approval. All right, now that we’ve explained the three prongs of the rebuttable presumption gene, please explain what the hell a rebuttable presumption is. That’s great. What what it does is it shift the burden from your organization, have to prove that the salary is reasonable and shift it to the irs to prove that it’s unreasonable, which the irs doesn’t want to do because it takes a lot of work. So if you just go through these procedures, you kind of put a big barrier to the irs to go after you brew for paying excessive amounts because you say i’ve used the procedures that treasury regulations have approved this is the way it should be done in the iris used to get it back off at that point, unless they think they have a really big fight. So then write if you follow these procedures, the compensation is presumed to be reasonable. But the irs has the option, although it’s unlikely that it would exercise it to rebut that presumption and try to prove that the compensation was unreasonable. Is that right? If they want to take it to court, if there were. Okay. Okay. Likely. Okay, but it’s presumed rash reasonable if you follow the three prongs that you laid out, correct. Okay, we’re going to take a break. And when we come back, jean and emily and i are going to a little role play exercise, we’re going to be the board of directors and we’re going to decide on somebody’s compensation. Um, i don’t know. One of you two is going to chair the meeting, so you’re welcome over this break to figure out who that’s going to be. And i’m going to be a boardmember and then the other person be boardmember, too. So stay with us for that role. Play exercise. Don’t know what’s going to happen. I hope you’ll stay with us. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Buy-in have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your object. Dafs. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. I got more live listener love laurel, maryland bend, oregon, and tokyo welcome to our second listener in tokyo. We got more tokyo listeners than we have oregon or south carolina or north carolina listeners maurin tokyo than most other states listening. Okay, jean emily, we’re talking about compensation, compensation, clarity, and we’re going to our role play board board meeting now. Who’s the chair. I’m okay. Genes the chair. Emily, you and i are board members or way just regular boardmember zor is one of our compensation under discussion or what? I think we’re about boardmember okay, but neither of us has our compensation under consideration that person’s removed. Okay. All right. Go ahead, gene. You’re gonna share the meeting, okay, tony so right now we’re talking about approving the compensation of the candidate who is going to be our executive way, didn’t approve. We didn’t prove last month’s meeting meeting minutes. What kind of what kind of foisting? Of ah, fake what? We didn’t approve last minutes less months. Amina melkis consent agenda earlier, tunney and now we’re on the second part of our meeting. We’re okay. All right, go ahead. I’m taking my time taking my fiduciary. Duty very seriously. I want you to write that care, loyalty and what’s my third fiduciary duty. Besides karen loyalty, a lot of people like this, they obedience. Obedience. Okay, well, i’m not all right. Well, i mean, i’m failing on three, but but i’m taking my first two very seriously. All right, go ahead. Emily. Emily obviously doesn’t care, but she’s like lester, let me see lackluster boardmember i hope your term is up soon. Emily all right, okay, so we’ve got an executive director that we need to hire, and this executive director is pushing us for a salary of one hundred thousand dollars and the possibility of bonuses of up to twenty thousand dollars for pizza. We’ve got a million bucks in our budget, and we’re not really sure whether approve this compensation or not. He looks like a great candidate, but there’s some other candidates out there as well. What do you think, tony? Should should we hire this person that the salary they’re asking for? Well, do we have any comparable data by organizations that are similar to ours? Go thin geographics and also annual budget on dh with that data also be comparable in terms of this person’s responsibilities. Emily, i think you were convicted. You right? Collecting this data? Yeah. So i researched some organizations that of similar type similar size and similar roles of executive directors. And i found three different data points. So, uh, one and these they’re all in our geographical area. One is eighty thousand one. Report ninety thousand and another one report. One hundred and ten thousand. Okay. We’re looking at one hundred thousand with the possibility of a twenty thousand dollar bonus. What do you think, tony? Um, i guess the bass sounds or so we have. Eighty ninety. First of all, i’m assuming that emily knows what she’s doing when she says that these things are similar and putting a lot of faith in her because i could be personally liable if this turns out to be excessive compensation. Um, only if you know that it’s expensive. Funny, but that’s. All right, that’s. Right. Okay. Raise a good point about the line. What do you need? A reliable source. Okay, well, your outstanding young lawyer. So i’ll assume that you’re on. You’re on the board. Very in doing this. Surveys what i brought to the board. Meeting and we’re going to attach them to the minutes of the okay, i like the i’d liketo like the base of one hundred. I’m not sure about the extra bonus of twenty family. What do you think about that extra bonus of twenty when the high of our comparable is only one ten? I don’t think it’s necessarily problematic if we have adequate justification for allowing that for example, if thiss opportunity with this executive director is probably going to pass us by, we are in a bind because we’re now doing an executive director succession that we didn’t anticipate and the organization’s going to be really hurt if we don’t find somebody who’s qualified and this is the most qualified person we found and we’re actually getting a really good deal for this person and it is discretionary, so it’s going to be up to the board at the end of the year and we have put a limit on it, you know, maybe we should evaluate again looking at our revenues and looking again at the comparability data whether twenty thousand is reasonable, but i’m not opposed to putting the opportunity of a bonus into the contract. Right now, that’s. A bunch of malarkey. I’m walking out of this meeting. Did you hear me? Did you? My footsteps and i just slammed the door closed. I i’ll propose i’ll ask to see if there’s a motion to approve a one hundred thousand dollars based salary with a possibility of a ten thousand dollar bonus. And we will actually look at the possibility of a further ten thousand dollar bonus if we hit certain revenue goals that might allow us to look at other comparable, do you think that’s reasonable? All right, i’ll come back into the meeting. All right? I’ll go along with that. We have to wrap up our meeting very quickly. Yes, i would approve that. Okay, so family makes the most money. Wilbekin were approved. We’ve got it as a draft that being the diligent boardmember i am just a reminder that we need to have adequate documentation and our board minutes. So i’m going to write down the terms of the transaction. We approve the date it was approved, the board members that were present during the debate who voted. I’m also going to attack the comparability data on there and as well document the fact that we followed our conflict of interest policy and removed the executive director from the conversation that was emily chan she’s, an attorney at neo non-profit exempt organizations law group and our board chair was jean takagi he’s, the principal of neo. You’ll find them both blogging at non-profit law blogged, dot com, gene and emily, thank you very much. My pleasure, thanks to my guests this week, evan giller and emily chan and jean takagi next week, aziz said, i’m recording this show weeks in advance, so you’ll i don’t know what’s going to be on here the twenty ninth completely, but have i ever let you down? I have not. So hopefully you don’t think i have let you down? I do know, scott koegler will be with me on march twenty ninth. You can count on that good old scotty will be here. He’s, our technology contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news what’s he going to talk about the man is only human. I can’t ask him this many weeks in advance, but has he has? Scott koegler ever let you down? We’re all over the social web, but you can’t make a click without sparkle a testa smacking your head into tony martignetti non-profit radio itunes, facebook, youtube, twitter, linkedin, four, square pinterest. Slideshare facebook. If you’ve been to the facebook page lately, if you love the show, please like the facebook page and more of our information will get into your news feed. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is our line producer on the assistant producer is janice taylor. Shows social media is by regina walton of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. Oh, i hope you will be with me next friday, one, two, two p, m eastern on talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com. Oppcoll i didn’t think that shooting. Good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. Duitz get him. Thing. Good hi, i’m donna and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family court, co parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten am on talking alternative dot com are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications? Then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight one eight three that’s two one two seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com we look forward to serving you. You’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays, one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology no reality, in fact, its ideology over in tow. No more it’s time. Join me, larry. Shock a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what’s important to you society politics, business it’s provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to know what’s. Really going on? What does it mean? What can be done about so gain special access to the ivory tower? Listen to me very sure you’re neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower radio dot com e every time i was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education listening tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter. Talking dot com.

121: Get Engaged III & Dutiful Documentation – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Amy Sample Ward, membership director for NTEN and blogger at Stanford Social Innovation Review

Gene Takagi & Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.com

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on december fourteenth, twenty twelve our november nine thousand you’re still with us, i’m tracking glad you’re still here, and i hope that everyone was with me last week. Yes, i just i just hope you were with me last week because if you weren’t, you would have missed show number one hundred and twenty one, twenty was last week. You can now spend five straight days listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. I suggest you start on a weekend this way you have a little extra time for bathroom and food breaks. I would start maybe on a thursday and include the weekend i would include a weekend in your five straight days of listening to non-profit radio last week, which is the one you would finish with because that will be shown number one hundred twenty would wrap you up for five days was your database policy manual? Karen heart, philanthropic services specialist for the main community foundation, and nicole san miguel, database administrator for the naacp rat free library of baltimore city, walked you through data entry standards, indexing and search ability, naming conventions and other topics that belong in your database, policy and procedure manual. And it was also maria’s top ten maria semple, the prospect finder and our prospect research contributor, revealed the top ten sites that she uses in her work true to form for our doi and of dirt cheap. Most of the sites are free, and her list is now posted on the linked in group and the show’s facebook page this week get engaged three tray amy sample ward is our social media scientist. She continues her siri’s on online engagement with gold setting. How do you know if your engagement strategies they’re successful? We’ll talk about identifying goal areas, assigning metrics and measuring your success. Amy is membership director for the non-profit technology network and ten and contributes to the sand, stanford social innovation review and dutiful documentation. Jean takagi and emily chan are legal contributors from the non-profit and exempt organizations law group explain the irs rules on what should be in all those acknowledgements that you send for two thousand twelve and had a value some of those gif ts between the guests on tony’s take to my block this week. Is cause marketing guidance from the new york attorney general? The new york a g wants to help you, and i distill their advice for your cause marketing campaigns. If you’re on twitter, you can follow the hashtag non-profit radio. My pleasure now to bring on amy sample ward she’s, a membership director attend ten, contributed to stanford social innovation review, co author of social by social, a handbook on using social technologies for social impact her blogger is amy sample, ward dot or ge and she’s at amy rs ward on twitter and unfortunately, she’s not in the studio today. Amy, how are you doing? I’m doing well, how are you? I’m very well you’re in portland, oregon, right eye and in portland this is where contends that main office is so i’m out here getting to me with staff in person for a little change of scenery and was actually onboarding a new staff person this week, which is always really fun. Okay, excellent. Our thoughts are with you in portland. A lot of talk about the shooting at the mall this week. Earlier this week. Yeah. Out at the crack of this small and now this morning. The shooting in connecticut, the elementary school so it’s, kind of, you know, end end times holiday season so far, very difficult, let’s talk about first an infographic that that i was sent i was offered people send me things too talk about on the show, and this one is interesting to me, and i thought you and i could talk about it. This is an infographic called very objectively titled how social media is destroying productivity. Andi, i sent it to you, of course, and you’ve had some time look at it, i will post a link to it on the facebook page on the linked in group. In the meantime, people confined this at learn stuff dot com um, you are ever learn stuff dot com all right? Well, so they’re clearly, you know, they’re concerned about productivity. Facebook has close to a billion users forty five. Forty five million short of a billion, but let’s call it a billion. People spend two times more time on facebook than they do exercising, you know, be a little provocative about i mean, they spend more time doing facebook than other things also, but they chose exercising wolber collectively each day in the u s people spend twelve billion hours on social networks. That’s interesting. A somebody who thinks about social networking a lot. Amy what? What do your do your thoughts about what you do? You have concerns about productivity? Well, i mean, for me, i think it’s i haven’t had a chance. Tio go look into their sources of where they got the data and what the data really means. You know, things like infographics are often so interesting to people and share a ble because they they could be interpreted in many different ways for me, i think it’s less, um, less a sign of of you now everyone and their mom wastes their time all day long and, you know, we’re we’re not doing any of our work, but more a sign of a distributed organization, a new era of the way people work. You know, people can quote unquote beyond the clock from anywhere so long as they have an internet connection and, you know, a lot the times and and looking at some of the staff in there, you know, that worker is interrupted every ten minutes by things like instant messages, right? Well i know that i’m quote unquote interrupted, you know, all the time, all day long, buy-in sametz itches, but that’s because i managed staff in other cities and instant messages, how we’re just saying, hey, i just tackled that one project or, hey, i saw that e mail come into both of us and i’ll take it or, you know, just kind of the way that you would work in person by just giving each other updates out loud. It’s now moving over two dozen messages, so it’s not necessarily cat videos, you know, and elearning youtube all day long, but it’s it’s, you know, it is technically an instant message, and and it is technically an interruption, but it gets the way you work now versus aah, total distraction and you know something? What i thought was interesting is that it’s list it was instead of being specific social websites to social networking, it categorizes things as time wasting websites and the number third number three, cnn dot com es o that right number twenty nine percent think i’m going to go to cnn because i want to just, like, chat with my friends, you know, like the way they kind of think about facebook being used that way, but for so many organizations, regardless of what your industry is staying on top of websites like cnn or other breaking news sources means your organization commend the the one that has the very first public statement about it. That student in connecticut this morning, as another elementary school, to be able to respond right away or, you know, whatever the kind of crisis our emergency communications may be, staying on top of, really, what we have as a objective world now, riel time, news and information means that organizations can get ahead of their competitors sabat and speak and be the one with the first announcement or be the ones that have the resources that the other news stations there now looking for etcetera, you know, again, it’s just a different way of working and not necessarily time wasting, you know, okay, andi also for our listeners, they’re they’re spending more time in the social networks because, well, i’d like to think in part because you and i talk about that, and we encourage people to use twitter and lengthen and facebook to the extent that it’s appropriate for them and, you know, all the things that we’ve talked about, everybody wasn’t everybody shouldn’t be jumping in, you know, you and i have been through that, and we’ll continue to teo explain it. No, yeah, i mean, i know organization, nonprofit organizations where a team, you know, a subset of the staff actually used private, you know, totally private facebook groups as the place where they are kind of doing teamviewer based product project management, you know, being able to say what’s going on every day and reporting to each other, etcetera, because it’s a tool that all of the people on that team are familiar with, they know how to use it, they like that email notifications in the back and forth. So instead of adopting a whole different project management tool that would be outside of any other tool there there regularly using, just use the facebook group and again, so that means they have facebook open all day, but they’re not necessarily just again, you know, posting cat videos to their friends facebook pages there, they’re using it for real time team communication. Okay, we’re gonna leave that there wanted to get your opinion on it. One thing i’ll close with is that the average college student spends three hours a day checking social sites, but what they don’t compare that is, too, the average number of hours a day that the the college students spend having sex buy-in i object that they left that out? I mean, i was a monk in college, but but there are lots of people spending a lot more than three hours a day at least having sex either with somebody or or alone, which for some people that’s a favorite weii just have a minute before a break. Amy sample ward, let’s see, we want to talk about our our engagement strategy, but really just have a minute or so we’re talking about goals. Do you have some congee? Just tease a little bit? How do you how do you start to set goals? And then you and i have a lot more time after the break. Sure, i mean first, if we’re going to a break, then i encourage everybody to go look upon their organization’s website and see what your mission statement and you actually have a theory of change, or if you don’t know what, that is just used the commercial break the good little theory of change opportunity, or pull up your organization’s active strategic plan, because that is really where you start when you’re going to create gold that apply to your social media, even though people would think they’re not, you know that high up and organizations chart of some sort. But really, you do start all the way your mission, or your strategic plan, or your theory of change. Okay, theory of change, or your strategic plan or your mission. You have homework for the break, and when we return, amy and i will keep talking about getting engaged online. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future. You dream of. Two one to seven to one eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stopped by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications. That’s the answer. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back. I’ve got to send live listener love before we continue with with amy, i’m going to send it to our foreign listeners first this time. Mexico. We can’t tell which city, but we’re in mexico. Welcome chung ching, china. Wuhan, china. Tokyo and fukuoka, japan. Seoul, korea. And curry, korea all live listener love going out tio are asian and mexican listeners, and we’ll get to the u s shortly. All right, amy, why is the right place to start with your strategic plan or your mission, or your your change theory? Well, in theory, not nothing that you are doing in your organization regardless of what department you’re in or what your job title is, nothing should should be extraneous from meeting your mission. The whole purpose of all of your staff, the reason that you have different departments, all of it should be to the end of meeting your mission, and when we that social media up as something that’s outside of that normal plan, then we’ve already set it up for first of all, other staff cannot really support it or, you know, to not have leadership for the board buy-in and that work because they don’t see it directly connected to the mission because it isn’t. But secondly, it also means that whoever it is that taft with that work isn’t able to set goals in the same kind of way, they don’t even see their own, you know, purpose for work as contributing to the organization in the same way. So not only do other people not buy-in and support it, but then the person that’s doing it themselves doesn’t see how they fit so outside of even what you do with the work, just setting up the contacts for that person and why they’re doing their job. You know, you either have an opportunity there for success or failure before you even start engaging. So so starting with your mission statement, you know, from there, you just work backwards look for the aspects of your mission that are focus on action and interaction, and then look for the parts that are social, the things that your community is able to contribute, too, and not just the aspects of your mission that, you know, require your staff policy maker or something. So so look for the opportunity where the community can be in and then require interaction, and then that’s where you actually set the gold specific to your social media or your community department now way learned a couple of weeks ago when you were on the last time that you have a real affinity for alligators. Actually, you’re a little scared of algiers, so we’re going to use save the alligators as our example eyes are hypothetical charity, okay, terrific, because because i know that’s something that you could buy into easily, of course, and also want listeners to know that this siri’s on getting engaged began october fifth if you want to catch the first part of it, and the second part was november sixteenth. So if we have our charities, objective is to save the alligators may be in the florida everglades, so not not worldwide, but just in florida in the everglades. There’s there’s terrific opportunity for outsiders to contribute to that in terms of awareness, maybe political advocacy, things like that, right? Okay, on dh and an organization, you know, or this organization that you and i have now founded called save the alligators provoc we probably have some sort of strategic plan or or we’re going to the whether we call it that or not, or something like a theory of change, which is more broad and says, this is how we see our mission coming, coming to fruition that says, you know, we see a few different ways that we’re going to save the alligators first is in the policy that support seven, and this is the kind of policy we’re going to work for it and the next is, you know, and this is where we’re going to create educational programs, so the public is no latto you’re scared of alligators or something, you know, so far down the line like that, you were goingto bucket out how we’re going to do this work, and from there we could say, oh, great, so there’s there’s a policy component of our of our mission? Well, in order for anyone to support a policy, they need to know about it. So a portion of the person’s job, the energy in our social media, they’re going to have a whole bucket, a goal of oppcoll and metrics and and work that’s focused on letting people know what that public policy proposal is understanding what it means getting. Involved probably recruited in their stories to help, you know the organizations public policy statement today if you can have community members saying, yes, we love our alligators, and this is, you know, how we’ve seen are so on the area destroyed and now hurting the alligators, i realized that all of this example shows how little i really know about alligators. Well, then, that’s a part of this person’s job and it’s no longer just yet tweet all the time about how we have a policy recommendation, but it’s so much more tangible because it helped change people’s minds about the policy recruit stories about this policy, etcetera, you know? So so you can translate directly from that mission all the way down to the buckets of actual content you’re posting every week. Okay? And how about some of the some of the advocacy, too? We want maybe people to write letters to editors and to bloggers we want to have people call or otherwise contact their state representatives things and so there’s a way we have our calls to action like we talked about last week, last month, exactly like last way said, you can’t just create a twitter account and start asking everybody to retweet you and take all of your calls action. But once you build up that community and you started building trust and engaging with people, then you can use the social tools to identify who those bloggers are that everybody listens to and reach out to them and say, great will you write the first the letter again showing that that you recognize them at the champion and influence there in the community? Will you write the first a letter and then other people will want to follow and participate, etcetera? Okay, okay, this is a good cause. And i appreciate that you want to be the co founder it’s a big step for you. That’s. A big step for you. All right. S o we’re so we clearly need to be, as you said, mission focused. Otherwise, there’s not going to be the support and the understanding of why were even engaged online. Why we even doing anything online before we moved to metrics? Anything more that you want to say about about creating the goals? No. I mean, i think, you know, a lot of people feel like well, you know we don’t have ah brand new strategic plan or we don’t have things laid out like this, but i really just i mean, we just showed with this very sophisticated organization that tony and i have just created called save the alligators, it really is that easy to move from a really high level, lofty mission statement, tangible work in in social engagements. So regardless of what your mission statement is or how it’s set up now, i really encourage all organizations to start from that place and don’t feel like, well, you are the organization that can you really can. And i just like that. If there’s ever than a challenge to why do we devote resource is it could be just a two person or three person shot, but why are we spending time on twitter and facebook? Because it’s a direct thes three threes direct correlations to our mission here, we’re trying to get join with advocacy. We’re trying to get awareness we’re trying to get public policy change, and this is how our social social engagement strategy supports each of those elements of our mission, right? Exactly, which is so much more empowering to that that person, but also to the whole organization, they can now translate for themselves how the person working in public policy can work with the person that’s doing the online engagement, and they could work together and not just, you know, separately in their own jobs, they could see how both of them need each other internally as well. Okay, let’s, move, teo metrics way want to start to measure these things? That’s that’s a substantial criticism of social networking that it’s not measurable. How do we know whether we’re succeeding, which we’ll get to, but but that’s what? You want to dispel all that? Right? Because it is measurable. Exactly. I mean, when you you know, a lot of organizations it’s really easy to track certain numbers because the different platform’s show them to you very prominently you goto a facebook page and now the really prominent number of how many people have liked that page well for you, almost every organization i’ve ever met that number isn’t the crucial number that you care about on your facebook page because if you have a thousand people that have become a fan of your page but none of them ever comment. Or share or even read what you post there, it might as well be xero people that like your page because no one would know. So making sure that that you go beyond just those really easy numbers toe look at, like, how many people are following you on twitter or whatever? And again, go back to those schools if we’re talking about state of the alligators, and we know that advocacy is a really important part and people actually taking that action way contract that let’s say, we want to see how many people yet wrote the letter, but how many people shared the letter of someone else, you know, way down that prominent blogger and asked them to write up a love letter to the very first letter, how many people commented on the letter that they wrote, so it doesn’t even have to be your facebook page, but but how many people are engaging with the advocacy appeals, whether you posted them or they’re the appeal you know, in your network, and that goes to all kinds of things, so not just you know how many people are liking or commenting on that letter, but how many? People have retweeted it how many people signed up on your website to stay in the loop on what’s going on on that advocacy appeal? So making sure that even though we’re thinking about this social engagement work as social media, quote unquote ah lot of these metrics don’t stay in that silo of facebook. If you’re doing a really great job on facebook, engaging people around an appeal, you also want to be just a the same time tracking how many people clicked to your website and signed up for the email to stay in the loop or how many people come from facebook to your website. And how long did they stay on the website? You know, looking at that that full circle from your your quote unquote home base, your website or your campaign page to social media and then teo material like emails or videos where it would be something there just consuming and back again. So how is that whole, you know, three part triangle connected and staying engaged throughout? Okay, how do we know what Numbers 22 start with if it’s a number of people who go overto comment on the on the letter. That was written over on the bloggers site let that was posted. How do we know what kinds of numbers to begin with? I mean, some some of the most basic that that all organizations can at least start tracking now to see if they know where they want to go next. What they’re tracking is so be tools specific as necessary. So was twitter, for example, you don’t just want to say how many people retweeted us this week. You want to say how many people retweeted our post that had a lincoln? Um, and how many p people retreated our posts that didn’t have a link, because as you you know, set yourself up to separate that content, you’re better able tto learn from the data, if you see after three weeks of tracking that you have fifty retweets every you know for posts that don’t have a link and you have to re tweets for your post that have a link. Well, that’s your community saying please stop posting links to your website. We just want to talk teo on twitter of or the invert you see, everyone wants to be sharing those links to your policy. Documents, but no one is retweeting you when you’re just sharing information, we’ll make sure that your frequently not always but frequently posting with the link so separate out the data as best you can, so that when you’re tracking it, you’re able tto learn from it and take action on it. And so that was a twitter example, but facebook another place where you can easily separate things out. Is it something that you posted because it had a photo or a video? Or was it something that was just a language or even just taxed? And how? How does your community respond to those things? So look at how many people viewed at term people commented how people shared it on dh then we can talk about more of the measuring and processes in a minute, but basically the best thing you could do is just to start tracking don’t say, well, we don’t have certain things in place yet or we haven’t finished creating this really great profile photos were not really using that page yet. You doesn’t matter just start tracking now because you’re not going to be able to make those informed decisions about what. To try next, or what kind of content to start creating until you’ve at least started tracking some things so you could say, gosh, no one interacts with our videos on facebook, let’s not invest in creating another video right now today, let’s try something else instead of feeling like you have to get all of that set up ahead of time. I mean, i just wanna let you know we’ll talk about measuring success next time we’ll have, we’ll have well haven’t get engaged part for because the metrics this metric section is really important. What about the the metrics that facebook gives you, like free, post like reach on a number of people who viewed and we have just like a minute and a half or so left are those are those of value? Yes, they really can be as far as measuring kinds of your post against each other so that you can say, you know, gosh, this one reached a whole lot more people than the one we posted yesterday. But there are so many variables to that built into facebook’s system, but also into you know, what day of the week was it and what? Time of the day wasn’t and did a lot of people like it right away, and so that then translated it, showing up in all of those people new season, then all of their friends interacting with it, you know? So there are so many variables in there that it’s hard to look at, it is just a static number, you know, a magical silver bullet of a data point, but it is helpful when you do sit down tto look between posts and say, gosh, what made this one reach so many more people? Well, then you can you don’t just say, well, i guess this post is a lot better, but it gives you the opportunity to say, this is the one that reached the most what was going on here that was different. Was it in a different time of day? What is it at, you know, a different day of the week, etcetera, okay? And you and use that information. But, you know, different organizations really focus in on different metrics, so some organizations rely on the talking about facebook metric and not because it’s better or worse than anything else, but they just picked it. And said, we’re just going to stick with it so that we’re sticking with one metric for now, others, they’re looking at reach, another aspect that impacts all of that facebook data. Is it you didn’t invest any money in promoting your post, we have to leave it there. We’re going to continue this subject next time amy is on show way will have her back. I wasn’t sure, but since she’s talking she’s talking about no, of course, we’ll have get engaged part for in january in january, amy alligator, that’s, right, save the alligators, you confined amy at her blawg, amy, sample, ward, dot or ge, and on twitter she’s at amy r s ward. Ah, that’s it at me, rs word. Amy, i hope you have productive meetings in portland. Thank you so much, all right, thank you. I hope you’ll be back in the studio in january. I certainly, well, excellent. Right now we’ll take a break, and when we come back, it’s, tony’s, take two, and then gene takagi and emily chan are legal contributors on dutiful documentation. Stay with me. They didn’t think that shooting getting, thinking, you’re listening to the talking, alternate network, get anything. Cubine hi, i’m donna and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family court, co parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications? Then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you too? He’ll call us now at two one two seven to one eight one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way look forward to serving you! You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz lively conversation. Top trends, sound advice, that’s. Tony martignetti, yeah, that’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m travis frazier from united way of new york city, and i’m michelle walls from the us fund for unicef. Durney welcome back live listener love here in the u s lawyer, california port, ellen, new york, new york, new york, liquid new jersey and new bern, north carolina there’s more those air are so far live listener love to those listening here in the united states. My block this week is cause marketing guidance from the new york attorney general cause marketing is when you team up with a company so that you raise money and they either sell stuff or they enhance their reputation or their image because they’re affiliated with your charity on dh there’s a lot of blurriness around this because a lot of people don’t really know how much money actually goes to the charity or how it’s determined how much is going to go. So the new york attorney general had some guidance five recommendations nufer i’ll just mention two of them here explain exactly what’s being donated. A lot of times you’ll see advertisements will say net proceeds to the charity we’ll net net of what? How do they define proceeds? Also after the campaign? Tell us all how much was raised. People want to know what the impact was, did they? Did they? Make a difference for you. So those are two of the five recommendations from the new york attorney general there’s more on my blogged at tony martignetti dot com the post is called cause marketing guidance from the new york attorney general, and i’m still asking for your help so many listeners. I’d be grateful if you’d rate and review the show in itunes rating is one to five stars you started our page on itunes, which you’ll find at non-profit radio dot net, or you could just search and then click view in itunes and itunes will open up and you’ll see a place for ratings and reviews. So it’s just a couple of clicks, i’d be grateful if you’d rate the show and write a short review and you do that night tunes and i’m very grateful for that. Thank you. And that is tony’s. Take two for friday, december fourteenth, the fifty first show of the year. Joining me now from san francisco. Jean takagi he’s, the principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group and he had it’s the popular non-profit law blogged dot com on twitter he is at gi tak g ta. K and also emily chan, who is an attorney at neo-sage principal contributor to the non-profit law block she’s the american bar association’s twenty twelve outstanding young non-profit lawyer, which is now coming to an end. I don’t know what she’s going to do in twenty thirteen shut the rest on morals from from the previous year, but so far that today that title’s title remains and you can follow emily on twitter at emily chan, jean and emily welcome hi, tony. Happy holidays. Hello. Thank you, emily. What you gonna do in twenty thirteen? You know, i’m not think reminding thinking about that. I’ll have to say she was last. Year’s american bar association. Outstanding. Young non-profit lawyer it’s it’s. Not the same laurel resting it’s. No. Good. We’re here to talk about documentation. How to get the right documentation and acknowledgements to your donors. But first, how to know what date the gift should be dated. Your your acknowledgement certainly has to have the date of gift gene let’s. Start with you. If if if a gift is a sent by mail us mail. What? What date do we does? The charity use for the date of gift? Well, the charity is probably going to use the postmark days, but the actual date that the don’t i get to take the deduction is the day that the donor dropped that envelope with a check in the mail box. So if it gets postmark the next day or january first, which is the next day, if they do dropped it off in december, thirty person gets post by january second. Donors have to form the charity that dropped it off. Oh, my gosh. Okay, gene, can you speak a little louder? Great. Uh, gene, can you speak a little louder for us? Yeah, absolutely. Tony so great question donors goingto take the deduction on the date. They drop it in the mailbox. But make sure that the charity knows that otherwise the charity’s gonna use the postmark date on the envelope on those could be different. That’s true. It’s. Okay, all right. And this becomes important as we’re talking about december thirty first versus january first or second when the when the gift is actually well, wouldn’t be open to probably january first. But it’s actually received and opened in the office january second or third. This becomes important. For those who wait till the last minute. Jean what about if it’s not received us mail, but it’s received by fedex because the person waited till the last minute or some other overnight service. Another great quest? Tony, don’t send last minute charitable donations through fedex if you’re trying to get a deduction in two thousand twelve because then that the charitable contribution will be deemed given when the fedex arrived and was received by the charity’s avectra steve january second that’s going to count of the two thousand thirteen death. Better to drop it in the mail that i sent it fedex on december thirty. Okay, excellent, excellent advice. And, of course, if gift his hand delivered, if somebody comes to your office, then that would be the day they handed over to you that’s. Right. Ok. Credit card donation. Same way is the day that that credit card is process. So the day that you give it, uh, okay. Well, wait now. Credit card processing, the date you you do the form online might not be the date that it actually gets to the gets to the charity and process. So how does that work? Well, it will be the day that it’s processed by the credit card companies. So it will usually be instantaneous. Okay. And would you use the date on your statement then? As the as the right date of gift watch? The donor’s probably gonna deduct it on the date that they made that charge. So yes, if they’ve got a receipt for it on december thirty first. That’s, the date you it might be different from the bank statement dated the bank takes a delay in processing. Take your receipt if you make that charitable contribution. Okay. You mean the credit card credit card receipt? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Emily let’s. Turn to you. Now, we now we’ve figured out how to know what date to put for the for the gift date. Let’s. Start with gifts of of cash. How do we appropriately acknowledge those for our donors? So, you and tony, tony, you and jane have already talked about some of the ways that you do. This is the donor. For example, looking at your bank records were having some kind of receipt that maybe automatically prints out. But when we start looking at gifts over two hundred fifty dollars, it’s important that the substantiation you have is something that actually comes from the organization. Um, and this is an irs rules, so again, default attacks mary-jo have a receipt for everything that you’re going to deduct, but when you’re looking at something over two hundred and fifty dollars, you need to make sure that the organization gives you some kind of written substantiation if you plan to take that deduction. And the funny part of this rule is that generally speaking, the organization isn’t required. Give that to you so again, as the donor is good to be informed of what you need and same thing with an organization and know what the donor needs, that you have good donorsearch right on dso our listeners are mostly the charities, so so over two hundred fifty dollars, they’re required to send an acknowledgement. No, they’re not required to something unknown judgment, but the donor is required to have one so it’s good donorsearch to put something in place for the organisation, that you’re able to issue out those in a timely manner and also with the most efficiency from the organization’s perspective, and the substantiation should say, you know what? You would expect, like, the amount of the contribution, but as well as whether that dahna received anything in return for the contribution. And if they did, how much they received a return. Okay, and we’ll get to that shortly. But also the date of the gift, right? You have to tell them, is not sufficient to just date your letter, but you have to give the date of the gift correct and it’s important to give that substantiation in what they consider a contemporaneous manner, which means before the end of the year of when the donor would make that deduction basically. Okay. Okay. Before so it before the end of twenty. Thirteen. You mean when they would claim the deduction? Is that what you mean? Right? Right. Okay. But of course, you want to do it before then, because there probably going to be filing their taxes by april fifteenth or october at the latest. Okay. All right. So now i wanna make sure i didn’t confuse listener. So two hundred fifty dollars, what’s the what’s, the what’s. The rule around two hundred fifty dollars, for two hundred fifty dollars, or more. The donor’s required to have a written substantiation from the organization the caveat here that was generally speaking, an organization isn’t required to issue one on we’ll get you an exception like he said in the seconds, but this is really important for organizations. No, not just look at what they’re required to do, but what would be a best practice to do, and it is the best practice as far as your donor issue, those, uh, received for them so that what your donor isn’t going to come back and say, hey, i tried to take the deduction that you never gave me this acknowledgement, and now i’m upset will never don’t you again, right? And of course, the really best wayto be thankful for gift and to express that is tio acknowledge every gift, even if it’s only five dollars? Yes, we would say so, but i don’t know that especially have it’s the hyre amount it’s even more important, we would say, because of this extra requirement from the irs. Okay, let’s, go teo publicly traded stock, and we’re not going toe listeners. We’re not going to talk about, um, privately held stock in privately held companies because it becomes very difficult of value. And things like that. But emily for a publicly traded stock first let’s define that. What do we mean by publicly traded? So this would begin stock that’s being treated openly on the market right now. So you would be able to look at the stock market and figure out how much it’s trading for at any given day or time. All right. And how do we acknowledge that kind of a gift? So this would be assuming that the organization is going teo, liquidate this right away, meaning that they’re also going to sell it. You’re going to treat it just like another contribution again? That could be tax deductible. So the organization is going to want to know again. Asshole of the donor. How much? That doctor’s words on the day that it’s given to the date of the gift. And basically the way that you do that. If you look at what it’s being chased out the high in the low and you take the average okay, excellent. Some people there’s some confusion. Sometimes people think it’s the value that the stock closed at on the day of the transfer. But that’s not right, it’s that average that you just explained if i can jump in it’s important to realize, though, that that’s going to be the donor’s responsibility to figure out what the deduction amount is. And the charity is giving those numbers just a matter of convenience for the donor and the donor’s tax advisor. So should there be some little caveat in your letter that says we’re not providing tax advice in giving you the value or what? What? We estimate the value of your deduction to be, i think that’s great advice, tony, to just say that caesar for internal gift recognition purposes, and to please seek guidance from your tax or financial advisor regarding the deductibility of your gift. Okay, gene let’s, stay with you. We have just a minute before a break so let’s, you know what? Let’s, just take our break and we’ll make a clean cut and, well, gene and emily and i will continue talking about documentation for quid pro quo gifts. What happens when you get a little thing back or something big back? And how do you value those things? Stay with us. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Oppcoll have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Okay, let’s, gene let’s, talk a little about when someone gets something in exchange and let’s start small. Suppose you make a gift and you get back a mug or a pen or a t shirt. Kind of what generally, the rule is if the gift for the contribution or payment that is being made by the donor is more than seventy five dollars, and you’re getting something back in return of value, then the charity has got to give you some sort of written disclosure that indicates the value of the item is given in return. But if it’s a token, ida, um, then there may be no need to do that, so token item might be okay. And what is a token is actually kind of defined, um, by the amount it is, it could be a low cost item. Or it could be an item that has the organisation’s name on it on. And if it’s a low enough value than that that’s going to be okay. And so the dollar figures i’m goingto let emily provided it doesn’t come off the top of my head. But it’s the low. Cost article, i think, is nine seventy with the organisation’s name or logo and if it’s not with the organisation’s name or logo, if the mug is less than two percent the lesser of two percent of the donation or ninety seven dollars, then you don’t have to give that written disclosures statement that says the amount of the value of the item given back to the donor return. Okay, that’s, a that’s? A lot to unpack, but listeners could go back and play that play that part back-up emily does does jean have? The number is correct. Okay, okay, now, gene, that was if the if the donation is more than seventy five dollars, if the donation is less than seventy five dollars, then you don’t have the charity need not disclose what was given in return. Is that is that right? Yet although it’s going to be a good idea for the charity to do so anyway, because the donor can only deduct the amount of the payments that is actually a charitable contributions so other than for those token token items, then something for the charity to indicate. So even if he gave a fifty dollars, gift to charity. And you got twenty five dollars, back. That charity should indicate what that amount given back. Okay, so, so sort of similar to what we talked about before it’s. Just it’s. Good practice to just do it all the time. Uh, disclosed what was received all the time. Okay. Plus, i just got makes it easier for your for your gift processing people. Teo did not have different rules. Just do it all the same way each time. Yeah. And note that this comes up all the time when charity’s hold their holiday party events and copied the chicken dinner with the ticket. Um, so the chicken dinner given back is a benefit that probably is more than the token benefit or the low cost benefit. So that’s going to be something that the charity will want to get back into receipt? The whole ticket may not be deductible, but a portion, maybe. Okay. And what? What about the silent auction items that you have? You have advice around those two? Yeah. Now, that gets to be a very tricky area. Because when you received ah non-cash contribution from a donor, the charity not goingto value that so. If somebody gives you a expensive vase and they say, you know, this is our donation to you, the cherry has no responsibility and is not in the business of appraising that for the donor. The donor is gonna have to do that themselves begat the deduction. But the charity will give back a receipt stating that a description of the items given, however, the big exception is if now the charity goes ahead and take that vase and puts it into a silent auction. And somebody bids sport let’s say somebody bid five hundred dollars for that body, right? The charity has got a responsibility to let the donor or the person paying for the box know what portion is a donation. And what portion is really the value of that vase? Uh, that they’re actually making just a strict payment for quid pro quo. Because it’s part sale and part gift and only the gift portion is deductible. Okay. And how are we going, teo? Value that? Yeah. Really tricky it it depends upon the item. So you know, if it’s super expensive than the charity, may have to get an appraiser to do that, otherwise they might. Look into, you know, being if it’s a fairly modest item, you may just look on ebay or craigslist that used and try to figure it out, but you don’t have to use reasonable method based, but, you know, pop your resources and the valley of the gift. Okay, emily let’s, go teo volunteering if someone’s instead of instead of making cash gift or stock if they’re spending their time with the organization, what what does the charity have a responsibility to? Teo teo, disclose that or acknowledge it in a certain way. And what can the donor deduct? I’m not necessarily so. The thing about volunteer services that the individual volunteering not deduct. I got the value of that volunteer time. So let’s say it’s the equivalent to paying, you know, twenty dollars per hour for your bookkeeper or something like that. You’re you’re volunteering the service, an organization that not deductible. But what could be deductible are the expenses that are incurred that are related to the volunteer services. So what say the cost of gas to get to the non-profits a place of business in order to do the financial services for them? Okay, we really have to leave it there. We just have a brief moment. Emily there’s a couple of publications that are valuable for for charities to figure this stuff out. What? What are those? Please? So there’s, the irs publication seventeen. Seventy one that’s. A really easy to read pamphlet. There’s also an irs publication. Five twenty six, which is a more comprehensive guide on charitable contributions and anything that’s tricky, like art or vehicles. There are special irish publications for that as well. So i would look for that specifically. Okay. And you’ll find the pubs on iris dot. Gov. Yes, that’s correct. Okay, we have to leave it there. I want to thank. Jean takagi and emily chan are regular legal contributors from the non-profit exempt organizations. Law group. You confined them both at non-profit law blawg dot com happy holidays to both of you. Thanks very much. Thank you. My pleasure, aunt. Of course. Also, my thanks to amy sample ward next week. Robert egger, ceo of sea forward that’s the letter c. He and i are going to talk about how to get political candidates to add non-profit issues to their platforms and how to endorse the candidates. Who? Do and scott koegler will be with me, our regular tech contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news. You can hardly navigate the social way without smacking your head into tony martignetti non-profit radio. We’re on facebook, youtube, twitter linked in four, square all those places and if i can urge you to go to itunes again, i’d be grateful if you would rate and review the show there wishing you good luck the way performers do around the world. We’re still in poland where where i’m wishing you poem ania nuke breaking of the legs again a z i told you last week, that’s plural so both both legs gotta go wishing you for ah for the time till we get another country inn poem ania nuke our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam lever, which is our line producer, shows social media is by regina walton of organic social media, the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. I hope you’ll be with me next friday went to two p m eastern on talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com. Out! I didn’t think that shooting. Good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. E-giving take it cubine hi, i’m donna and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family court, co parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications? Then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight one eight three that’s two one two seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com we look forward to serving you. You’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio friday’s one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you fed up with talking points? Rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right spin ideology no reality, in fact, its ideology over in tow. No more it’s time for action. Join me. Larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the isaac tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what’s important to you society, politics, business and family. It’s provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who wants a go what’s really going on? What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me. Very sharp. Your neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s ivory tower radio dot com everytime was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education listening. Tuesday nights, nine to eleven. It will make you smarter. Talking dot com. Hyre

116: Grow Your Grateful Patient Program & Disaster Relief – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Bill McGinley, president and CEO of The Association for Healthcare Philanthropy (AHP)

Nancy Johnson, senior consultant at Target Analytics

Gene Takagi and Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.com

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Dahna hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, i’m your aptly named host. My thoughts this week, of course, are with everybody affected by sandy up and down the northeast than into western new york, the finger lakes and ohio. My thoughts are with you, i am calling in from north carolina because i couldn’t get back home in time to do the show. So what? We have a show and we’re proceeding, i hope you’re with me last week. Oh, it would hurt me deeply tto learn that you had missed a conversation with janet eggers she’s, a senior vice president of products and marketing for blackbaud at their bb con conference last month, we talked about what’s coming in the non-profit technology market, special considerations for purchasing technology and leadership lessons that she learned from being a triathlete. Also gps global positioning. Scott scott koegler is the editor of non-profit technology news in our technology contributor, we talked about location based services that use the gps technology in your smartphone. Four square, instagram, yelp and facebook places are examples of sites that you can learn from your partner. With to get to know your donors and volunteers better this week grow your grateful patient program bill mcginley, president and ceo of the association for healthcare philanthropy, hp and nancy johnson, senior consultant at target analytics, sat with me at the bb con conference to talk about health care, grateful patient fund-raising why these prospects are critical and very generous privacy concerns and how to start your relationship. Also, disaster relief charities want to help hurricane sandy victims, but in the rush to help, you can’t ignore the rules around private benefit needs assessment and documentation, you’ll be on the right path with our legal contributors, jean takagi and emily chan from the non-profit and exempt organizations law group between the guests on tony’s take two i have a bunch of sandy disaster relief organizations that are doing very good work, and i’ll share some of those. If you’re on twitter, you could be using the hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us. You take a break and when we get back, we’ll go right into grow your grateful patient program stay with me! They didn’t think dick tooting getting dink dink dink dink you’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. E-giving, you could joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city in pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot or or a nj dot net. Hi, i’m donna, and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family, court, co, parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more. Dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever. Join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Yeah. Geever. Durney durney welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of bb khan twenty twelve we’re in maryland, just outside washington, d c my guests are nancy johnson she’s, a senior consultant, target analytics, blackboard company, and bill mcginley, president and ceo association for healthcare philanthropy, both of you. Nancy bill, welcome, thanks for taking time on a busy day. Delighted fundez your seminar topic is best practices for successful healthcare fund-raising strategically grow your grateful patient program. Bill president, ceo of association for health careful answer. I’d like to get the articles right that got you surrounded. Details report. I like the articles. Why is a grateful patient program critical to healthcare? Fund-raising let’s start with basics in health care and our group, particularly those were representing providers, hospitals, medical centers, long term care, hospice and such. The group that is connected that has had an experience that has been touched by the provider is a very important group. They’re very generous, they are involved. They know what the organization is about, what it can provide. So there they are more generous, the average member of the public simply because they’ve had an experience with the institution they know what it’s like they are part of a major part of the family, which is the physicians, the employees, the governance, the executive, the trustees of the hospital, and grateful patients. They represent over fifty five percent of individuals that give healthcare so they’re essential for us and their big givers help me understand why they’re not unapproachable because of privacy laws. Well, they are very approachable, and privacy rules allow the health care provider access to demographic information, so names, addresses of patients are part of what we do internal for our fund-raising is perfectly acceptable. So it’s acceptable for the clinician to share with you development office is that right? Think the physician at the hospital, the nurse, the janitor can refer a name to the foundation for somebody who might be interested to get okay is perfectly acceptable in permissible under the law. And nancy, why don’t we start with some of the tips that you have for growing this very important grateful patient program? Fifty five percent of individual fund-raising to health care’s from these people. How do we get started? Absolutely well, one of the main objectives have to be able to find the people that are. In the hospital immediately so that the foundation can really approach, not approach them for it. I’m coming to say hello, i’m introducing you to the foundation and letting you know that our goal of the foundation is to increase the awareness of what we do to help raise more money. And so what we see is the opportunity to find the best people to make the right gift at the right time, and what we’re doing is identifying with people that are most capable as well as the people that are already connected. How do we start that conversation? Once we’ve identified people, how do we initiate conversation while they’re in the hospital? It’s a quick hello, i want to connect with you now, if you’re already a donor, i’ve been wanting to meet you. You’ve probably been wanting to meet me. We’ve maybe meditate events, we’ve we’re friends, so you would expect me to come by and say hello to you. So these people were starting with the premise that these are people who are already known through the hospital, oftentimes they are ok. Other times you’re a new prospect. A new patient, that’s just came to the hospital and what’s important is to let them understand and know that we have a foundation that will be working with them for the future. Okay, bill, what do you hear from fund-raising professionals in hospitals about making that initial contact? What kinds of responses are our patients willing to talk? Oh, very much so. And when our members are making these visits there rounding and they’re there in the room with a patient, one of the things that are offering to do is they’re they’re our contact for you, anyone that comes into a hospital to have a procedure that is very unique for the individual. It may be a bit routine for some of the providers are member, you know, really steps across that gap, providing for as a resource answering questions, someone they could turn to for communication to make sure that they’re comfortable, what with what they’re receiving and the kinds of things that they’re going to undergo an experience while they’re in the hospital, because it is a foreign land to anybody. Who’s, a patient who’s coming in for russian scary that can be absolutely it’s unknown and while again, it’s very routine for the providers in the sense that they lived there, they worked there. It is a unique experience for any patient is coming. Nancy, i took you on a slight aggression howto make contact once we’ve identified, but what’s your advice around doing the identification. Current patients absolutely. We have a process that is totally automated, so no human hands touching the data way. Use the black boy as blackwater target analytics. Many of our clients use razors edge as their donor management system. So many of their donors are already no one, and we compare they’re the names of the new admits two there database as well as to wealth program, and we’re putting a radio, letting them know the best prospects for major gifts, the best prospects for annual e-giving and that allows them then to make a decision if they should go visit okay, and or put them into an annual solicitation lorts joining and something even better. Yet, if we’re visiting someone that we know that is a major gift donor. And maintaining their interest in the programs and their opportunity to support activities that are beneficial for others in their this is an opportunity for the foundation to reach out to people with them in the hospital. So i look at it is they’re coming to visit you there, there if you don’t reach out and say hello to them after you’ve had a relationship for years, not really good. I want to say at least a hello it’s not going to be a long visit, but i’m reaching out to you. What if it is someone who’s who’s due to the hospital? Not part of the family, not someone you’ve known for years still appropriate, too. Greet them while they’re in the hospital? Absolutely, i believe that most people when they’re in the hospital, they’re experiencing something unique buy-in it may be the first time they’ve known about the hospital, they become part of the health care family there and by reaching out to them they expect it’s, a buffalo here here’s i discount for gift shop or maybe i’m goingto leave the newspaper behind for you. I come in with a friendly face, i’m not bringing in needles. And i’m not taking blood from you and it’s. A quick high. Okay, okay. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot, or or a h a n j dot net. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Oppcoll durney i found that interesting. What nancy said in the session earlier today was that these people are coming to your home. They’re coming to the hospital are home, they’re coming into our facility. Ten there are any experience you have in the hospital there are there five, ten, fifteen people that air in and out that air touching your life during that process and tohave one focal point that could be helpful that, you know, you could turn to if you’ve got questions or a spot that you can go to a person, you could go to facilitate communication and make sure it’s clear among all these services that are being provided is very much appreciated by patients. That’s what we find so you’re encouraging the fundraiser to ask, act as a resource? Yes, from times they do on dh it’s quite appreciated, as you know. All right. So then, after we’ve identified we’ve initiated contact bill what’s what’s another strategy for growing this program. Well, that’s part of what we were talking about today, there are different levels of grateful freight patient programs at the very basic level, you find that contact that call being made that introduction and it may be sixty or ninety days later where we’re looking at that individual and deciding is this someone we wantto make an appeal to our reach out to bout some program or service that we’re offering where their donation can help someone else? Is it someone who’s contributed in the past or who has the capacity to do more? Do we want to put them way want to put an effort in front of them or an opportunity in front of them as a major donor, where they can make a significant difference because of their contribution to the community and, you know, that’s very basic there others where you’re doing the analysis in the analytics, if you will, you’re assessing wealth management capacity so that when you talk with someone, you develop a relationship, you clarify their interests and also the level of what you believe they can support a particular activity in helping others. Now, nancy, you’ll have to forgive me because i’m going to ask bill about what some advice for hospital may not have reasonscall so there are some way to walk away. I don’t want to have a conversation, but i’m just thinking of our audience is small and midsize charities, and there might be smaller hospital. It doesn’t have reasons aid xero identifying you wanna do it right? Well, i will tell you. Okay, identifying grateful patients. We often look we’ve compared to their database no matter what it is, and so doesn’t have they don’t have to be a razors that juicer. The ideas were helping them identify grateful patients and look into the patients that air there so that they’re contributing to their experience. So it’s a step just that they would have to be a mechanism for sharing the information from from no, i don’t know if it’s missions exclusions. It comes from admissions. Typically it kind of sermon ambitions. And then it’s submitted and and no one really has to touch it. It’s, elektronik lee done. We screen it, and then the results are back within ninety minutes so that the foundation can decide. Okay, who’s the best person to go visit this oversignt bilich and our members are clearly using razors, edges of tools. And one of the best advantages of this as a tool is simply that expands our members capability beyond it. Maybe multiple be able. To multiply the impact, one person can have two, twice a ce much three times as much because it is some of it’s automated but it’s more instantaneous than than operating off of written records comparisons that you’re making relative to wealth management to an individuals in the hospital or who has been discharged is instantaneous, as opposed to trying to make all those connections in your head. So this truly, really expands our members capacity, forgetting to more donors this right on that’s, that’s, invaluable. Okay, well, do you have specific advice for smaller hospitals, health care facilities that whether they’re using razor’s edge or not isn’t an advantage to be a smaller, maybe community hospital? Well, you know, it’s it’s so much like any everything you’ve heard around the world all fund-raising is local, and it is individual in many respects and again razors age is a tool enables that capacity if you don’t have razors, eggs, there are some other alternatives and things you could do all the way back to when i started, when it was, you know, index cards in a shoebox, but it’s, that kind of approach, so there are things in between certainly. Razor’s edge is sophisticated, and really, the value is really an expanding capability. But there are other ways you could do that. Part of it is more manpower, which is hard to get in smaller organizations. Part of it is a process and dedication to that process every day, no matter what the elements are that you put in place so you can make it work. That may not be quite as effective without some of these tools, but it’s still gonna work. Okay, so the smaller community, when i’m familiar with a smaller community hospital, shouldn’t avoid grateful patient program. No, not it all so quickly. If your foundation executive this fund-raising is part of your obligation, your purpose and it’s within the health care community. These are institutionally related foundations to the hospital, right? They’re not out raising money for the you know something else in the community focusedbuyer hospital? Absolutely. Okay, honey. Another area that we all thought blackbaud way want to be able to help all sizes of none. So we eat. Tapestry is a wonderful solution. That is many times used for the smaller community hospital. See tapestries at a cloud based. Is it ok? And so i don’t think we know history tells us we’ve worked together for many, many years that many of the hospitals use razors edge that it like you say some of the smaller, newer hospitals, maybe they don’t need the sophistication, and they have way have a wonderful opportunity for them to use a tapestry let’s talk about some other advice around building back to building this grateful patient program. Nancy what what, what, what what further advice did you give him? Your seven? Well, each hospital is unique. And when they started looking at what makes the program different, it’s getting buy-in from the whole health care community from the top all the way to the to the janitor that’s in the room with someone the foundation needs to be more than the organization of the part of the organization that says, hey, do you want to be, how much are you going to give to the employee program this year? We want to make sure that the foundation is connecting with the nurse is the people that are front line with patients and making sure that we’re hearing you need to stop in and have a visit. Kayman we need to make sure that we’re introducing grateful patient programs that can enhance all the different areas of the hospital so that everyone’s understanding those programs and bringing the community together because really it’s all about the services that were providing to these cubine what’s your advice about getting getting clinicians involved in fund-raising first, they’re busy, my my what i hear and my experience in doing some plant e-giving consulting for hospitals is docks are typically well, i don’t know a good number of doc’s doctors are not willing to partner really with fund-raising with development office for the foundation, what’s your advice for sort of breaking down those walls, i think when you really start involving the whole team and you have a new approach and it may be a totally new approach, you have to think outside of what you have done in the past, health care is we’re having to raise more dollars every year, and when you’re asked to raise more dollars with less, you’ve got to use the right tech what’s what’s into approach help us help the audience understand what what’s one new approach they go to their their doctors by implementing this information so that i can focus within ninety minutes and be able to be next to someone and introducing all the good work we do that makes it takes the guesswork out of it. It allows me to be more focus, and then it also allows doctors to have opportunity to refer people to us and a system in place so that they know as a team we’re working together. Will you have you have advice for breaking down those walls, getting into those characters who are often unwilling it’s, not just the doctors you’re talking about building a culture of philanthropy and awareness throughout throughout the community, right? You do that, you do that. You do that with the orientation, with new and ongoing employees that you have. You do that in the training opportunities with the nurses and with practitioners and such that you’re talking about philanthropy or letting know about the foundation with the physicians, they’re human beings, too. You need to embrace them the way you do others, and there are programs and activities that could be very supportive of areas that they are interested in, either in their specialty orin pieces of equipment. Or things that are going to make their delivery of care much hyre to their patients, so sometimes it has to be very specific for helping them to see what the foundation could do for them if they’re willing. Tto partner and i mentioned that family of donors, the physicians are large portion of that, right it’s not every physician, but it’s, the ones that turn on to see the fact that getting involved this way, and even being philanthropic myself, which, if i do it through plan giving or some other vehicles, can benefit me and directly, you know, that has a meaningful impact on my patients and that’s where doctors focus it’s all about them and their patients seems to me so if we could bring it down to the patient care level, the benefits of working with the foundation, making those clear and one one other element that struck me is that in that culture of philanthropy, what you want to get it too is a point in the overall institution that this isn’t something that’s nice to have. This is something that’s essential that needs to be elevated to the strategic level, the planning of the whole so that the executives on the hospital side are learning to plan for and depend upon and demand that philanthropy be a major part, their business, and what they’re trying to do with it has to come from leadership, right, creating a culture and and we see in our benchmarking service that we do with the standards where you have the ceo of the hospital involved in active way in, you know, signing letters in being president, making some of the calls with you as appropriate, you’re getting a much better result in a much better return on the dollars that are being raised, because donors want to know that there have any impact, and the important people in this business are aware of what they’re doing. And bill, i think we’ve seen that change over the years. The two of us sitting in these seats have watched healthcare philanthropy changed enormously. Wey have to leave it there. Thank you. Nancy johnson, senior consultant with target analytics and bill mcginley, president, ceo association for healthcare philanthropy, thanks very much for being guest. Thank you. You don’t know what you want. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of become twenty twelve. We’ll be back with additional guests. I, you’re here further seconds, stay with us, my thanks to nancy johnson and bill mcginley and all the people at bebe con. It was a pleasure to be there, and i have more interviews from b become twenty twelve coming for you. Right now. We take a break when we return. It’s, tony, take two, and then gene and emily disaster relief. Stay with me. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam lebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology, no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect, no more it’s, time for action. Join me, larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio in the ivory tower. We’ll discuss what you’re born, teo you society, politics, business and family. It’s, provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to go what’s really going on. What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me very sharp, your neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower, radio, dot com every time i was a great place to visit both entertainment and education listening. Tuesday nights nine to eleven, it will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com lively conversation, top trends and sound advice. That’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio and i’m janna agger’s, senior vice president, products and marketing from blackbaud. Time now for tony’s steak, too. I have a lot of ways that you can help hurricane sandy victims throughout the country because, of course it was not only the northeast, not only new york, that was that was hurt, but the hurricane then you know, from new york city went into western new york and upstate, into the finger lakes region and then into ohio. So nationally there’s the american red cross. Um, you can donate at red cross dot or gq, or you can text red cross two, nine zero, nine nine, nine, and you’ll be giving ten dollars, to their disaster relief fund, including sandy. Red cross is also looking for volunteers, so if you’re able to volunteer red cross dot or ge is the place feeding, feeding america, they have a lot of food and emergency supplies. Water uh, that they’re e-giving throughout the disaster zone and to donate to them, go to feeding america. Dot org’s save the children is also working to provide relief to families and their children metoo they are at save the children dot or ge craig newmark, who has been a guest on the show twice uh he’s, the founder of craigslist and craigconnects and he’s uh, he’s matching donations up to twenty five thousand dollars for sandy victims and he’s doing that through crowd rise. So to give to that fund-raising dot com flash sandy relief. And when you go there, a picture of craig pops up. If you want to be more local in in new york, there are a lot of blood drives. I read hundreds of blood drives that were canceled because of the hurricane throughout new york state. So now we need blood. And if you want to donate blood in the new york city area it’s, new york sorry. And why blood center dot or ge? If you happen to be a techie in new york, you have tech skills. Um, new york tech meet up and new work city are organizing volunteers that have technology skills to help with relief efforts to help new york area businesses and non-profits get their technology back up and running. For that, you can go to bitterly dot slash hurricane tech volunteers. So that’s, uh, which place is that you can give time or money too, in support of people that are really in need throughout the northeast and a pinto, i said, north northern new york state and ohio, and on my block this week is a post called researcher bias in smelters planned e-giving study. Delta company did a a survey of potential planned e-giving donors. These people, they believe, are potential plan giving donors, but i detail in my in my block that still, the company also makes its money in large part bye selling print materials, direct mail materials, no website and consulting services for for outreach. So to me, it’s in there, broad corporate interests to have a bigger base of, of playing, giving prospects than we traditionally have had, and that, to me, creates conflict. They want to sell their services, and they’re encouraging charities to look beyond the what’s. Been the traditional prospect pools in terms of age and boiled e-giving history, and that i detail at on the block again. The post is called researcher bias in altars. Planned e-giving survey and my blog’s is that tony martignetti dot com that is tony, take two for friday, november two forty six show of the year with me now jean and emily. Jean emily, are you there? Hi, tony. This is jean and least beside me, but it’s going to be me alone today. And we hope that you and your family and all your loved ones are doing well. Our thoughts and prayers for everybody affected by the hurricane. Thank thank you very much, jane. I know you’re familiar with natural disasters being in the san francisco area. Yeah, we certainly did. Emily is there she’s just holding your hand or what? You’re not going to die. She pretty much is holding my hand and promising, tell me what to say. Okay, of course. Jean takagi and emily chan, they’re firm is the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo-sage which you’ll find at attorney for non-profits dot com and jean jean’s blawg is gene. I don’t have it in front of me because i’m remote right now. Remind people what you’re what you’re bloggers, please. Sure. It’s just the non-profit lob log non-profit law blawg dot com and emily is the contributor to that as well. Um, so we’re talking about disaster relief, obviously timely. If a charity wants to do something, they’re so moved, maybe they’re in of a neighborhood that was that’s affected or whether they are or not. Can they just start, eh? Sandy disaster relief fund that’s a great question, tony, and, you know, charities are often the centres of their communities, especially in small communities and it’s really great to see communities pull together and non-profits wanting to help, but sometimes the non-profits mission is not aligned, oh are consistent with providing disaster relief. They might be in existence for doing some others types of services, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t help, but it does mean that they may have to take some steps before they help, and one of the things that they need to do is they need to change their mission. So they’ve got to make sure that on their website, on their marketing materials, and particularly if they’ve got a mission statement in their articles of incorporation or their by-laws to change that, to expand it, to be being able to provide those disaster relief services that they want to provide for pete’s sake. So if i want to do something, i can’t just do it the next morning, i have to look at my articles of incorporation first, yeah, you’ve got to get that board together and take a in an emergency action txtgive that that mission statement to the extent that it is constrained by your articles, so you’ve gotta operate consistent with your governing documents. So you’ve got to change those if there is that statement in there, that’s one of the reasons why we like to make sure that the articles purpose statement, they called a certificate of inc in new york, it’s not so specific that you can’t uh, uh, let your organization of all take on things like this in the future and then a tip for revisiting your mission statement for all non-profits so is there a phrase that is safe that is brought enough that you recommend it doesn’t have to say hurricane relief, right? Absolutely. So you can say we’re providing charitable services in whatever area you want to focus on on dh leave, it is broadly is that in your articles, and then you could define it more specifically on your website and on marketing materials like grant applications, but when you decide to engage in a new activity like disaster relief, and that really goes outside of what you’re doing. Perhaps you were providing music education, you know, when you really go outside of that pounds, you’ve got to make sure that you don’t use prior donors funds, which were dedicated towards music education in our example. But you’re using nufer funds once you’ve changed your mission statement to engage in that disaster relief activity. Okay, onda of course, once you start collecting funds for a certain purpose, then you have to use them for that purpose. That’s correct. You can’t then if if the if the disaster is is overcome, you can’t switch your funds back to music, right? So the money that you resent you raised for disaster relief, you’ve gotta make sure that they’re focused on that. And we had some issues with that after nine eleven. And so are some other duvette actors where organizations felt that they had expended enough money in that area and wanted divert the rest of the money into other areas beyond that could be a real danger. All right. Is emily passing you notes right now? She always passes me notice. Okay. Okay. Stop it, emily. Genes genes good on his own. He knows what he’s doing. Okay, so once you then expand the mission statement, if you need to, you also have to inform the irs. Is that right? Yeah, although you don’t have to do that right away. So you can engage in the disaster relief activities, which usually you’ve got to do pretty quickly. But you can report the change in your activities and the change in your mission to the irs when you finally form nine, ninety for the year in which you changed those activities. So for example, you wouldn’t have to file if you were going, you know, finally for two thousand twelve until may two thousand thirteen. Okay, okay. That doesn’t have to be immediate. I just realized i neglected to send live listener love during tony. Take two. And we have a lot of listeners abroad. Tokyo, taipei in taiwan and yung yung in korea and send gen china welcome live listening love to all those foreign countries and also to philadelphia, which is not quite as far into me. I live in new york, but philadelphia’s not quite as far in as those other. Cities, um, pardon me for that, but jean but i have to send my listeners love. Sorry, uh, that’s great. All right, so once so, then once you have expanded your mission statement, if necessary, then is there any limit to what kinds of relief you can provide? Well, there are so you’re still restricted by what we described on our last couple shows private benefit issues. Oh, man, private benefit again? Yeah. You know, charities exists to provide a public benefit, and they can’t be operated to promote private interests. So you’ve got to be careful. So we can’t give a million bucks away. Teo, somebody who was barely hurt by the hurricane that would that would not be appropriate. You’ve also got to be worried about conflicts of interest so forgiving to board members or toe officers of the organization and not in an objective matter, not as part of a charitable class of individuals affected or with preferential treatment to those insiders. That would be wrong, but we certainly can provide funds, services or good ensure that victims have basic necessities like food and clothing and housing and medical assistance and things like that. What can you define a class of people that you want to help. Yeah, i mean that’s, something you should do. So you should say, you know, this is good for business and not only legal reasons, but are we just going to help anybody affected by the hurricane? Are we goingto, you know, really look at financial need? Are we going toe not look a financial need, and we don’t have to. We learned after nine eleven that we can even help communities that don’t have financial disadvantages, but that were hurt badly by the hurricane and or any disaster and weaken give emergency relief so emergency relief services can be given without a needs assessment. Otherwise we want to determine what type of needs we’re looking for. Is it financial need? Is it medical? Need it, you know, for disabled individuals within a given area? Are we goingto limited geographically all sorts of things that we need to target our mission towards? And then when we get this whole pool of charitable class members that want our attention, we have to figure out what type of resources we have and how we decide who to give it to the needs assessment. Is something that’s required or it’s just very smart to do well, it’s it’s really required if you’re going to be required to go the scorning assistance yeah, it’s not so required if you’re just providing emergency assistance. So for giving out blankets and food and shelter in the next couple weeks for the hurricane victims. There’s no needs assessment required for that, you know, it’s pretty obvious who’s in need. Okay, but if we’re gonna be e-giving ongoing, you know, rental assistance payments and that’s going to last for several, several months past the hurricane, then we’re going to think about why are we just giving it to a select few individuals? And how did we choose them? We’ve got has some objective in good faith criteria there. What about helping businesses? We’ve been talking about people. Yeah, that’s actually possible, and some people, you know, don’t realize that that’s possible, but sometimes business owners are financially needy, and that would be okay to provide businesses in that case and otherwise they might be distressed or or to come back community deterioration or lessen the burden of government. And we’ve seen, you know, from the west coast we’ve seen the photos of some of the the impact of the hurricane on the seaboard, especially, and those air communities where, you know they’re not going to recover unless their businesses recover their small businesses. And the small business owners need assistance to get back in there. Otherwise, the community is not going to get back. And so that’s a case where non-profits can actually provide assistance, the businesses as well. Okay, but go and going back to people. We can’t define a class of people that, uh, illegal in or, you know, impermissible in other circumstances just because we happen to know that they were particularly burdened by whatever the, whatever, whatever the disaster is. Oppcoll well, i mean, you could certainly define your class how you want it. But it’s got to be again, pretty objective. So that you’re not, you know, favoring people who either don’t really have a need or favoring insiders of the charity over others. Okay. We can’t target this too specific individuals, but we can certainly say community’s, though, right? Yeah, and it could be a small neighbourhood community that you’re targeting that was especially impacted or where the charity is an existence and it’s kind of the hub of that community, or or we could have more expansive criteria. Okay? Bonem now, so the people need to fit into the the people you’re helping need to fit into that terrible class. As he said, um, a little more about conflict, potential, conflicts of interest? Sure, well, you know, if you’ve got a board of directors of a charity of charities should have and they’re determining who’s going to get aid from the charity, we certainly don’t want them to benefit themselves, though there others, even if they’ve been affected by the disaster, they might be able, teo, be eligible to be considered among the charitable class of individuals and so they might get some benefit, but it would be incidental, and they should certainly not be making decisions on benefiting themselves. They would have to abstain if they’re part of that charitable class on who to pick that will receive help. I mean it. Would be nice if charity’s could give help everybody, but obviously resource is air limited, so they’ve got a decide who’s most impacted or who they want to help the most in line with their mission. And board members and officers of the organization have to really be careful because they’re in power positions of making those types of decisions that that’s the conflict of interest issue. And sometimes when you have outsiders who are part of the selection committee, you know that can create more trust if you get community leaders who are not on the board but involved in selecting who might be able to receive relief that might give some, you know, assurance to the community that they’re not going to only benefit themselves the board of the charity, that is, but it also creates additional conflicts of interest so that we make sure that those people aren’t benefiting themselves, thie outside selection committee members or their families or their business partners or route, you know, and, you know, business relations. So we just have to be careful about those things i see and that’s consistent what we’ve talked about in the past. That’s absolutely right, we have just a minute before break gene it. Would it be permissible for a charity to say that the charitable class they want to help volunteers to that charity? People who have been volunteering with them in the past? Yes, longest that’s a signature una, significantly large enough and indefinite class of individuals it’s going to be okay. So if we’ve got, you know, one hundred volunteers and we’re open to taking more volunteers and we’re going to help our volunteers that’s going to be okay, especially if they if they, you know again, not preferentially board members and officers of the organizations who are volunteers. Okay, but if it’s too small a classic like five people who are volunteers, we can’t sir, you know that just those five people is a charitable class that would be impermissible private benefit. All right, we’re going to take a break team takagi stays with us. We’ll keep talking about disaster relief, and i hope you do, too. Talking. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com how’s your game want to improve your performance, focus and motivation? Than you need. Aspire, athletic, consulting, stop second guessing yourself. Move your game to the next level, bring back the fun of the sport, help your child build confidence and self esteem through sports. Contact dale it aspire, athletic consulting for a free fifteen minute power session to get unstuck. Today, your greatest athletic performance is just a phone call away at eight a one six zero four zero two nine four or visit aspire consulting. Dot vp web motivational coaching for athletic excellence aspire to greatness. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Got more live listener love to salt lake city and moscow and dallas, texas also south bend, indiana thanks for joining us live listener love to all those cities, jean what if you collect more money than there is need? Now you’ve you’ve said, you’re specifically collecting it for this purpose. It’s not needed anymore. What do you do? Yeah, that’s really tricky tony so one of the things that’s kinda boyd that situation. So you want to be careful when you read to find your mission? The only way that happens is usually when you defined your charitable class so small that you know you, you raised enough money to help them out through the air. Emergencies on dh you’ve decided you’ve got extra money left at that point, you’ve gotta operate as close as you can t to the charitable purpose for which those monies were collected, donors typically don’t have a right to get that money back, so, you know, you could go to court, and we figure out what to do with that extra money and people could bring you into court, too, to decide what to do with that. That happened with nine eleven i don’t want that to happen, so be very careful of that. You can usually find your way around it as long as you haven’t made your mission and your charitable class so so tiny and specific that that that it becomes a knish you later? Okay, but what do you do with the money? Well, you’re going to use it for close to that mission is possible, and if it’s if it’s really outside of that, then you’re gonna have to go to court and get them tio follow through an approved where that money is going to go and it’s called a sight prey issue. But i didn’t want to get into jargon jail, but i suppose they just have so i pray i like i like how that spell right? See why pr ess, isn’t it? That’s your sigh, pray okay, go ahead, go ahead, tell us, what’s, i pray is show off. Well, i pray it is, of course, latin and lawyers like to use it to impress other people on dh when i literally mean like you’re doing right now, james, i think it is near it’s possible or as near as i may be possible. And i think it’s latin. It may also actually be french coming from the old french language. So it’s often used where people have designated their gifts their charitable gift to certain purposes, and that purpose is no longer required or becomes impossible to fulfill. So that might be, for example, the eradication of polio which the march of dimes had encountered early on. And they needed to change their mission. Later they decided to otherwise polio had, you know, essentially been eradicated with jonas salk back scene on dh. They changed to birth defects. So i pray, is a very common doctrine used when charitable purposes have been completed or impossible to complete further. That sounds like a lot of trouble. Could we give the money that’s excess to another charity that does the type of work that we had raised the money for? Yes, certainly. If they can, if they can, if they khun do those type of activities and we no longer can then that that certainly is permissible. So long, focal donor’s intent and what the charity had said the money would be used for is still used for those purposes, you know. Okay, so there’s a dozen easier way out than going to court. All right, right. So long it again. You didn’t pick such a fine mission that nobody nobody else could do it either. Yeah. All right. We have just about two minutes before we have to go. Uh, let’s say a little more about documentation. We talked about the articles of incorporation amending those and we talked about the nine, ninety in that year. What else is required? Well, you know, what you should be requiring is the type of assistance that you provided, whether it be financial assistance or in-kind good blankets, food, housing, whatever the costs associated to the charity with providing that assistance, the purpose of why you’re giving that assistance and why you’re giving it to those individuals that are receiving the assistance over others. If the board was not making those determinations about who gets and who doesn’t get on dh, there was some selection committee. How did you choose that selection committee? On what criteria did they use for dispersing the aid you want? Also document the names and the addresses of the river citians of the financial aid that you’ve given or significant non financial. Aid given again, this wouldn’t be necessary for emergency relief, or you’re just giving food and shelter and blankets and things. But if it’s ongoing gauge, you wanted to make sure you know who those recipients are and you want to disclose that either there was no relationship between the recipients of aids and an insider, a director officer or substantial contributor to the organization our thirty document that i have one last thing, tony, make sure donors don’t hey don’t earmark their donations towards specific individuals that’s not allowed, so i can’t give a gift and say give it to my uncle, who got affected by the hurricane that we’re not allowed fifteen seconds. Where do we document all this is just inboard mitts you khun documented in board minutes or any sort of organizational document that you you hold and that the organization can attest it is the policy or the practice of the organization. Jean takagi, his firm is non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco and you’ll find him at non-profit law blawg. Thank you very much, jane. Thanks, tony. My thanks. Also to regina walton, live listener love going tow her in san francisco and she also very helpful in compiling the list of agencies that i had for tony’s take to regina, thank you very much. I have a new fund-raising fundamentals podcast out with the chronicle of philanthropy, it is how to recruit and motivate volunteers for your events. You’ll find it on the chronicle website, and you’ll also find fund-raising fundamentals on itunes next week. Career advice for your entry level and junior employees jonathan lewis produces career advice videos with leaders in non-profit social change uh, he his video interviews are free and they’re short, and i think they’re valuable as you lied and mentor twentysomethings who want to make a difference in the world, he and i are going to listen to, and he’ll comment on a couple of clips. One is called mentoring for dummies, and another one is called shut the hell up and also next week, maria semple returns our prospect research contributor and the prospect finder has resource is for researching privately held companies. You know, she always has a ton of free and low cost sites and ideas, and next week will be no exception. You can find us on linkedin reveling in group you can offer ideas for the shows and continue the conversation with guests on linkedin. We’re on facebook, you know that i haven’t said it recently, but that’s because you already know it. You can listen to non-profit radio, live or archives. The archive is on itunes at non-profit radio dot net on twitter you can follow me, use the show’s hashtag non-profit radio and you can also follow me on foursquare we can connect there wishing you good luck the way performers do around the world. We have left estonia, estonia is behind us so from estonia go west across the baltic sea and you land in sweden where they lightly kick performers in the bud before they go onstage. No hands allowed on ly a kick, please and when they’re doing it, they will say, breathe at the bend freak at ben, which means break a bone so i guess sweet don’t have femurs and to be his invidious, so just break any bone in your body is fine. You don’t have to be specific to the leg, so i’m wishing you breed at ben. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. I’m leaving, which is our line. Producer assistant producer janice taylor is sending me text telling me when the time is coming up. Thank you very much, general shows social media’s, by regina walton, of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. Oh, i hope you’ll be with me next week. Friday one to two p, m eastern on talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com. I didn’t think that shooting. Good ending. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get anything. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on so speaks been radio. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam lebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people. Dahna you’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti athlete named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication. And the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office needs better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills. Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com that’s improving communications, dot com improve your professional environment. Be more effective, be happier. And make more money. Improving communications. That’s. The answer. Talking dot com.

113: End-Of-Year Campaign Coordination & Compensation Clarity – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

John Murphy, CEO of Zuri Group

Karen J. Collins, Technical Strategy Consultant of Zuri Group

Chris Coletta, social media coordinator for Conservation International

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.com

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Durney hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host, thanks very much for being with me this week. Um, i’m dedicating my show this week. Tio my dear friend dave, who i know has been suffering from depression for many years. And i just learned this morning that he took his own life and it’s very sad. I’ve never dedicated a show to anyone, but this one is for dave in north carolina. He leaves ah, beautiful wife kathleen and their teenage son. And this show is for him this week. It’s going to be the end of your campaign coordination. John murphy is the ceo of zuri group. Karen collins is zuri groups technical strategy consultant and chris colletta, social media coordinator for conservation international. There were my guests that blackboards bb gun conference earlier this month. They have strategies to boost your end of your campaign with planning, branding, leadership and creativity. Now is the time it’s the fourth quarter and also compensation clarity how do you determine what’s reasonable compensation for your executives? What happens of compensation is excessive what’s that automatic penalty that kicks in if you don’t disclose benefits. Plus, we’re going to a board role play let’s. See who ends up chairing that meeting between the guests on take teo tony’s, take to the value of a quest on i give a hungry man pastries on the subway, and it got me thinking, are you on twitter while you’re listening? You can use hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us right now, we’ll take a commercial. When we return, it’ll be directly into my bb con interview on campaign coordinate end of year campaign coordination. Please stay with me, it helps to feel you out there today, didn’t didn’t, didn’t dick tooting good ending? You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get in. E-giving duitz joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve, save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot, or or a h a n j dot net. Hi, i’m donna, and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family, court, co, parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more. Dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever. Join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Sametz durney welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of bb khan twenty twelve were outside washington, d c at the gaylord convention center and my guests now are karen yeager collins, john murphy and chris colletta. Karen is technical strategy consultant for zuri group that actually seated next to karen is chris coletta he’s social media coordinator, conservation international and at the end is john murphy, ceo of group. Please. Chris, why don’t you acquaint listeners with what conservation international workers? Thanks. Yeah, conservation international is, as the name implies, an international non-profit conservation organisation, we work in about forty different countries. Our mission is to protect nature for the benefit of people human well being a sort of at the heart of what c i does so, you know, protecting forests because they help us by climate change or protecting our oceans because they give us fish and, you know, products and things of that nature. So that’s what it’s all about what’s the annual budget there roughly about hundred million dollars? And if i’m wrong on that, you know, guide star will slap me down, but i think that’s about right, but nobody listens to this show way. John john murphy, what lies would you like to tell about the missouri what’s, the work they’re xero groups in online technology agency focusing on non-profit success? We’ve been partners with blackbaud for five years and worked with primarily with their customers, helping them be successful and filling gaps in their organizational. Okay, karen, what your seminar topic for the three of you was taking your end of your campaign outside the box is very timely. We’re in getting of the fourth quarter what’s, the what’s, the first piece, but i see you have for building the end of your campaign. What we’re trying to promote is that a lot of people have their end of your campaign one more begging them to plan for their end of your campaign as opposed to coming up on november first and not actually having a plan to go out to the biggest part about it is making that plan the other thing we’re what should we want to start that? Well, when did when did you start your campaign planning way? Started our campaign plan for this year at weeks ago, and it is today, october. Once we’re taping, you started planning. Just just a few weeks ago. I mean, you know, probably the beginning of august is when we sort of sat down as a group in earnest and really went for it, you know, maybe even earlier would be optimal if you have the time. You know, not everyone does, but certainly, you know, by, you know, this time of year, hopefully you’re pretty well along. If not, you know it’s. Ok, there’s still time you could do last there’s definitely things that you could do now, and you’ll be okay. But it’s going to move on so that’s, what we’re trying to promote is that planning and to plan early and then the outside of the box thing is, what can you do, teo to make sure that people choose to donate to you because you’re going to be inundated, everybody has an end of your campaign. So how to think outside the box to get you noticed. And then ultimately to cultivate that donor to your organisation as opposed to all the other ones that air filling their end boxes or filling their social media, new speeds and things like that. Okay, john, beyond you have the plan. But how do we start? Get some of these outcomes that karen is talking about executing the plan? Obviously so if you have to plan and most organizations start their plan, hopefully after last year, so january february rolls around and you’re starting to look, then what you’re gonna do that holiday season? And then you start implementing the plan. It usually kicks off right in the beginning of november, so organizations that look at holiday fund-raising you’re looking pretty much november one through december thirty one so that it could include black friday type e mails all the way through urine tax giving. All right, so what are some of the elements of this plan since the planet is so important? John it’s, it’s really a planning calendar so you you really start with a planning calendar, and you look at your database and you’re looking at how you’re approaching all of your constituents so you addressing them with direct mail or you’re addressing them with email, address them with phone calls or some type of event for a holiday season and that calendar than usually across all the organization we’re seeing organizations taking there, direct marketing efforts and putting him under a single point of focus so that they don’t get multiple people overlapping and spending extra resource is and during the time okay, chris, what’s up. How is some of this playing out of conservation international? How are you doing some of the things that john well, john, especially john is talking no, you’ve already done your planning. How does this work? What? John’s talking about working at cia? Great. Well, certainly, you know, i sort of want to stress that, you know, and are talking talked a lot about what? See i did last year. We work, you know, intensely was very group, you know, on some various things, one of the first things that we did is we actually built a map where people could go online and, you know, sort of show their support for conservation and not just show their support, but actually say why conservation matters to them. And, you know, sort of that was i like that because was very on brand is we need a teacher, and you’re going to tell us why and by the way, when you do that, of course, we’re also going to get your name. Andrew email address and your interests because you’ve told us why you care about nature and your twitter handle if you decided to post it. So making my life is a social media coordinator really great, because now i can go and i can, you know, match some of those folks with their twitter handles personally thank them, get them on board and hopefully start a relationship that you know eventually if they get enough content from us if they get enough good stuff, wait until the relationship so they become a donor just let’s just pursue that altum or whether it has to do with end of your campaign or not building from i do twitter relationship you get it, you get a handle, you have the information that you just you just described about a person, their interests. How do you take that relationship beyond twitter? Well, so social media in general, i sort of think of it as you know, you’re getting someone to say that they’re interested in you, whether they follow you on twitter, you know, like you on facebook follow-up board on pinterest reno look at your photos on instagram, whatever you know, it’s sort of platform agnostic. Whatever it is, they’re there because they have signaled that interest. Falik so, you know, then you had to ask someone out on a date they signal their interests. You actually, you know, start sending things about your organization. Um, and hopefully if you are giving them relevant content, what they care about, not what you think they need to know, but what you no, that they care about, because you’ve done your research and you’ve done your hopefully, you know, either, you know, ask people what they care about. You done focus groups, you know, in some other way, you know, following sort of best practices research ends, they get interested, then you can ask them, hey, you know, have you signed up for cia’s newsletter? You know, some of them will sign that perseus knew slater six months, they’ll get six newsletters and some, you know, start to get campaign e mails and they get enough campaign e mails and they like what they hear, then they’re going to make a donation, it’s all about getting your foot in the door with a person and then, you know, treating them, you know, sort of. In a very human, you know, personal way. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology, no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect, no more it’s time, join me, larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio broke in the ivory tower. We’ll discuss what you’re born, you society, politics, business, it’s, provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to go what’s really going on. What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me, larry. Sure you’re neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower radio, dot com e every time i was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education listening tuesday nights nine to eleven it will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com karen, you want to say more about that? Not you nodding off a lot. You want to add to it? Absolutely, absolutely so what kristen has done with that math, it was called connect for conservation is what we did for that pretty campaign for them last year. Not only did they get their twitter handles, but they also got like he was saying to expand upon what the conservation connection was, there was options for health, there was options for climate, there was options for, you know, all different types of connections, and so what chris was able to do and what he was speaking on is now we know that not only they’re interested in conservation organisations, but they’re also interested specifically in climate, so therefore that was how chris was able to personally thank them on twitter, but then now we know that climate is their main concern, so the way that you cultivate and as chris a date that constituent and turned them into a donor is to listen to what that that attraction is to the organization and continue to hit on those spots so that then all of a sudden they realize that they’re not just somebody that has pockets that they could give two, but there’s somebody that you care about and you want to educate and therefore that makes them i want to better your organization and better your mission and that’s, what we’re trying to do here is not just continue bringing people in tow us, but to better our mission and to solve our mission and that’s how you do it through those touchpoint of social media, okay, and let’s, bring this back to the end of your campaign. What would we then do specifically with that person? We’ve given the information that we know? Absolutely so with the end of your campaign. What were stressing with that social media point is if you have somebody that you’re reaching out to via social media, you need to make sure that they know when you touch them and other organization or other outlets that they know that it’s for the same campaign, so the branding around that is really important. So if your hashtag in twitter is going to a certain level of detail than that needs to also follow through on facebook and the facebook brandy needs to follow the branding that you have in your e mails and your email, brandon needs to be on the landing page or the donate page that you have on your website. So we’re really trying to make sure people understand that it’s not just sending them to donate form. That’s been on your site for eleven months, it’s sending them to donate form that’s branded towards what your campaign is, regardless of whether it’s end of year or not, so that you can really bring them in and let them know that everything you’re doing is targeted towards something, whether it’s an end of your campaign or whether it’s a campaign to save the ocean, you know, so that’s, really where that planning comes in place is well, is that you make sure that all of your touchpoint are branded towards what you’re trying to do. John wants a lot more about the importance of brandon as it relates to the end of your campaigning or not just important co-branding friend of yours cause in general, or just, well, certainly toward fund-raising gold. I think when you brand mean, so if you’re branding this pacific campaign and then you bring your it’s really to attract a new face or in this case, it was more online people, right? So you’re trying to grow your list through these different types of brands and appealing to people where, what, what strikes them and what’s going to make them react to you so that you can then go on and foster that relationship going forward? Okay, so i think one of the things that conservation international did well last years, they thought of a brand that spoke their mission, so it was people need nature to thrive. And so that was the brand that that was underneath conservation international for their end of your campaign, which was so fantastic because it spoke their mission, but then it also gave them away toe brand the unique pieces that were connected to the end of your campaign to a smaller micro campaign that was still a part of the entire organizations goal and mission overall. And so they picked something, and then that theme carried through all of their channels so that people knew that when they were getting something that said people need nature to thrive when they hit the website. It also said people need nature to thrive, and they were able to kind of carry on that slogan throughout all channels so that they could whenever they had a touchpoint or whenever somebody interacted with conservation international, it’s stayed on that campaign and gave them a really fresh look without stepping away from their brand. John, it sounds to me like leadership is critical in this because we’re talking about talk about different departments working together exact about them were going to your heart striking to the heart of the mission. Yes, and you have me on that and leadership non-profits is sometimes very like a university where you have siloed leadership. Will you have different organizations that are responsible for certain budgets, and sometimes they don’t play nice with each other and you can see organizations where they do have overlapped, so have a unified front within an organization where there are looking too a goal going forward for this type of campaign is very important. So it’s gotta come from the top. Yeah, and that’s the way it using the right it’s just it’s the top saying here’s, your number, meet your number but it’s really usually two or three levels below the top where it actually gets implemented, where the plan actually gets put into place and that person is unifying the team to get the results, and so the top is sort of they want and number and when they don’t need it in there, you know, there’s things to pay, but you know that that is a struggle that we see quite often in non-profits so weii deserved you try to help also bringing that together, bringing fresh ideas, bringing the best practices that we’re seeing from the hundreds of clients that were working with that have the year and campaigns, and then helping them get through those hurdles and get through those home. Oppcoll yeah, i was just going to say that, you know, this sort of two conversations that were having, you know, about branding and about, you know, leadership in the case of conservation international, specifically last year’s you’re in campaign or sort of one of the same, um, you know, having a brand, a strong brand is important for any organization, whether you know is for-profit or non-profit or, you know, just a kid with a lemonade stand, you know, on the side of the street and so, you know, we really try and cultivate that twelve months out of the year, and people need nature to thrive is actually sort of cia’s tagline, you know, we sort of adopted it, and so when it came time to, you know, do a year and campaign, you don’t have to reinvent the wheel like we literally just made our tagline the theme of our year in campaign, and then we put it on everything because that’s, what we do and that’s what we believe and so, you know, this sort of leadership approved idea, you know, sort of the core see i’m messaging is what we call it, you know, internally, you just have to tweak it a little bit and, you know, use it to fund design things and, you know, make sure it sort of has a visually consistent identity and that you’re telling compelling stories and all of a sudden you have yourself a year and campaign and the thing that i like about that is that when if you do have that trouble of siloed if you do have a campaign that has a specific theme, even if your direct mail team is on a completely different side of the building or is, you know, not even in the same office building as your media team, then because you have that common theme, even if you are silent and you’re working through those blocks that you’re trying to break through, if you have that common theme that gets hit onto your direct mail piece or gets put onto your social media board or gets set up on your donation form all of a sudden least it looks upon appearance that you are branded and cohesive, even if, on the back end you’re working with suri group or working with somebody else. Teo, get that strategy together so that all of those silos are speaking to each other. Karen, what else should we be saying about bring it back to end of your campaigns that we haven’t talked about yet? One of the things that we’re trying to do so that the title of the talk is thinking outside the box so we’re trying to get people to look at what they’re doing now. And maybe do something a little creative, so we’re going to talk about a couple of organizations, especially conservation, international and all they did something unique that helped them stand apart from all of the other organizations that are going to be fighting for the same donor’s because you, you know, there’s only so many people out in the world, i know we have over seven billion, but of those you are going to be fighting with organizations, not just the same ones of your mission, but just all organizations for those donors and there’s only so many dollars out there, and you want to win as many as possible for you. So what can you do to be unique? And so we’re going to give some ideas, and then our hope during the session is to get people to brainstorm together so that maybe they leave the this session with that one piece that’s going to make them creative. Are there more ideas that we haven’t talked about yet that you plan to share tomorrow? Absolutely. Well, okay, well, who wants to wants to throw another one out? I’ll go ahead, since you know we’re going to be talking. About some of our stuff, you know, just one of the things that we did, everyone has a light box at the end of the year, you know, you get a gun organization’s website and it pops up and you know, it says either you donate or, you know, you know, take this, you know, activist direction latto light boxes, okay, yeah, yeah, sure, let’s back-up said so i don’t have to explain why rebecca, because on tony martignetti non-profit radio, we have drug in jail, i am in charge in jail. The youngest may be the youngest, i’m not sure, but wait to have anybody drug so quick, quick parole, if you’ll explain what a light boxes so i will exercise my get out of jail free card and say that a light box, if you, you know, let’s, think of it it’s, like, sort of a non annoying pop up if you go to a website, if you go to most non-profit websites, i suspect you’ll see some right now as they’re getting ready for the end of your campaign, you know, will pop up sort of, you know, transparently, you know, over the main page and it will have, you know, a message, you know, and that message might be donated. Might be please take this action, you know, like save the whales cia doesn’t really do save the well stuff. I don’t know, i said that, but it just sort of came to mind what all of whales and you connects out of it and just go to the main site, okay? So you’ll see a lot of that a year and, you know, because we’re trying to get folks attention right off, you know, we don’t want them coming to our website and, you know, doing other things, you want him paying attention. John has something that was going to say a light box is a very good year at strategy. I mean, as far as gathering email addresses and growing your list prior to your end, to give you new people to connect with as part of your plan, lightbox has been very successful. Okay? Okay. Good christmas. Yes. So i’ll be quick. So it’s, you know, sort of a china tree strategy using light box. What we did is, you know, we had designed for us a light box where it was sort of tiled photos of both people and, you know, biodiversity, species, animals, and they literally started disappearing when you came to our site, you know, it said, i believe ignore them and they’ll go away that is using sort of an old classic and just putting a little bit of a creative twist on it, and that was an extremely successful both, you know, acquisition and fund-raising tool for us because it’s so emotionally powerful over northern, they’ll go away and, you know, just little things like that is what we want to really stress, you know, what our panel is? It doesn’t have to necessarily be something crazy, you know, you don’t need but with a clown, you know, sort of running all over your fund-raising marketing who knows things just i need, you know, some clever ideas that air on brand that, you know, sort of expand on, you know, best practices, you know, that the industry that you know you’ll get to hear, you know, places like we begun, okay, john, you want to wrap up, we just have a minute or so because you have to you have to depart shortly, so i’ll give you i’ll give you the parting words around end of your campaign. I think if you don’t have an end of your campaign, you need one and you need to plan and execute it, and the creative strategies are are sort of our this sizzle to the steak, right? So you need to do the creative strategy to drive and grow your grow your campaign’s awareness and get people more excited. And in this case, there last year is very successful, and i think it tapped into a different audience and your standard non-profit donating audience and i think also serbia murder is part of your campaign is you don’t necessarily only have to ask for money, you can ask for people to volunteer and participate in your organization in other ways as well. That was john murphy he’s, ceo of zurich group on seated next to him is chris coletta, social media coordinator, conservation international and next to me is karen collins, technical strategy consultant for the jury group or thank all fever for being guests. Thanks very much. Real pleasure. Thank you. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of pecan twenty twelve my thanks to everybody at b become earlier this month got live, listener love going out san francisco. I think i know who they are. You better be calling in shortly. Carpinteria, california, or carpinteria, california. Welcome, charleston, south carolina, and new bern, north carolina, which makes me think of my dear friend dave, also arlington, virginia. We got the coasts covered, west and east live, listener love out to all those folks. Right now. We take a break when we come back, time for tony’s, take two, and then our regular legal consultants, gene and emily, join us to talk about compensation. Clarity. Stay with me. Talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot, or or a h a n j dot net. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Oppcoll lively conversation. Top trends. Sound advice, that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m samantha cohen from the american civil liberties union. I got more live listener love going out. Tokyo, japan. Welcome. Welcome back took it was frequent listener welcome back. Tokyo tony’s take to my block this week is the value of a cross on on the subway. I gave a hungry man some a bag of pastries that i had bought for a client. Teo cut up and, you know, putting their kitchen for them tio tohave during the day. And when he asked me if i have anything that that he could eat, i looked at the bag and i realized that it would i mean a lot more to him than it would to my client. So i gave him the bag of pastries, and and he enjoyed it. And it was it was actually it was very touching. He afterwards, ah, he looked over his shoulder and gave me, gave me a thumbs up, and i gave him a a wink back and what? It reminded me of his how much i have and how much a tiny, tiny fraction of what i have would mean to so many people who have so much less than what i have and trying to be more conscious of. That because there is there’s no there’s abundance in my life and it’s easy to take it for granted. And that subway episode ahh brought me back. T recognizing how fortunate i am tryingto stay conscious of that more often and there’s a little more on that, my blogged the post is the value of a quash sewn on my block. Is that tony martignetti dot com that is tony’s take two for friday, the twelfth of october and the forty third show of the year. Right now we have jean takagi and emily chan on the line. We have them, don’t we both excellent. Jean is principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the popular blawg at non-profit law block, dot com and he’s at g tak gt a k on twitter. Emily chan is an attorney at d’oh and she’s, principal contributor to the non-profit lob log she’s the american bar association’s twenty twelve outstanding young non-profit lawyer and you can follow emily at emily chan at emily c h a m a million gene welcome back. Hi, tony. Hi, tony. Good to have you back. We’re talking this month. About compensation because it seems to flow from what emily and i talked about just a couple of weeks ago. So, emily, why don’t you? Why don’t you lead us into this from from last month? Sure, so are lots. So he talked about the private benefit rules as a tea ad buy squeezed in a very big phrase there the preventable cruise up to the reasonable miss, and we’re going to get not this show, but basically we’re going to look at the penalty that the irs usually will impose when they find an inappropriate benefit going. Teo insider as we talked about last week, ok, so now we’re really looking at, i guess, practically speaking, the kind of penalties that organizations should be very knowledgeable about and also very wary of so that they could follow the best practices and make sure they’re protecting their organizations. All right, you were cutting out a little bit, emily, but we were able to fix the sound quality. Just say that. Say that. Say that very, very rich and wordy phrase again from from last month that will talk more about just say that again because you cut out a little. Bit there, rebuttable presumption of reasonableness. All right, we look forward to getting into that gene. What are the general guidelines for compensation for? And who are we talking about? Whose compensation are we talking about? And what of those general rules? Well, practically speaking, we’re talking about the compensation of the executives. So that would be the executive director or ceo or president and of the cfo or treasure the organization has compensated. Chief financial officer. Okay. And what are the rules generally, that just that it has to be fair and not excessive, that that’s practically the rule, tony. So it can’t be excessive and and the way we try to judge that is we try to look at what comparable organizations air paying. And so the big question is, what is a comparable organization and what is a comparable position to compare? You know who we want to pay another organization and what they’re paying. Let me throw something interesting. Least interesting, too. May our maybe you had illegal minds may not find it interesting, but but i do. Over here, um, you said it’s only for executives, but what i see in ah lot at colleges. And universities, the highest paid people there are often coaches. Sports coach is like a basketball football coach at at a big big, you know, big name program does does this this excessive compensation apply to them? Also are on ly to the executives of the organization that’s a great question, tony. Thank you. We’ll bring you back next month. Thank you. Drinking area. When we’re talking about big institutions like colleges and universities and healthcare systems and big non-profit hospital, the range of what we call disqualified persons or insiders definitely goes up. People have substantial influence over the organization or a particular segment of that organization. So football coaches will probably be drawn in into that equation when they have a huge influence on on the institution itself. Okay, there are just more general rule beside the what we call the intermediate sanction rule their excess benefit transaction rolls the night i go into jargon deal for that. Oh, my god. Yeah. All right. We’re gonna get to that stuff, parent and broader doctrines that you could get in trouble for as well. Okay. Broader than just the executive. So it’s so it’s those who can exercise ah. Lot of control over the organization, wherever they are, wherever they are in the hierarchy. That’s a good way to think of it. Okay, cool. That’s the late person. I’m gonna turn it on. You wouldn’t know it the way i talk. Okay, let’s. See, what is this intermediate sanction? Emily what intermediate? To what? What’s, the more extreme. So the more extreme penalty comes from the world. We have that last month with private benefit private kermit, we’re technically really the penalty is reputation of sabat on that thing’s pretty severe, especially benefit confirmed it was only a little bit more than what it should have been. So what the irs produced then was something that they called their intermediate sanctions. Also the excess benefit transaction will, which instead of replicating tax exempt status, so actually impose a penalty tax on that access benefits so it can be imposed both on the insider who benefited. And it usually starts with a twenty five percent penalty talks with the excess amount, but also boardmember should know that they can also be taxed of ten percent of the excess amount if they knowingly, i’m approved. Ok, knowingly mean let’s, just stick. With compensation at this point, let’s not let’s, not get too the xx of benefits. We’re just talking about direct compensation, cash, cash compensation. So so boardmember sze, who knowingly approved it meaning meaning they knew that it was excessive, right? So they have actual knowledge of the transaction. And when i use the term access benefit, i don’t mean the stuff on top of what say base salary, just an excess benefit itself, which could be a large compensation. Oh, the way that i used that term in the way that fused with the rules. So um and boardmember, who would be considered knowingly approving such a transaction, would be someone who knows the terms of the transaction. I’m also aware of the possibility that that transaction might be excessive in violation of this excess benefit. Transactional, i’m and also, you know, failing to make those reasonable tends to figure out whether it is actually excessive, but this goes back to the fiduciary duties of directors and making sure that there, meeting their duty of carrie’s, loves their duty of loyalty and making sure that they’re making informed decisions and that it is in the best interest of the organization. By not saying something. That’s excessive. Okay, and we have talked about those those duties, those fiduciary duties previously can can. These penalties that are levied against boardmember is, can they? Can they be paid by the organization? Generally, no. So this would actually be triggered under state law of there are provisions that have to do is indemnification, which is the organization’s ability to cover expenses that would come out of situations like this. They’re being stewed in your capacity as like an officer, a director of the organization on dh. Generally, that probably not going to be okay under state law, no matter what. Okay, okay. Let’s. See? Okay, gene let’s, let’s. Turn to you and let’s talk a little about the this the rebuttable presumption of reasonableness that emily mentioned before. What? What what’s that how does that play in here? So these procedures are useful wherever you’re no good for you know that you’re going to compensate one of these insiders amount that is not obviously way below market level, but you should go through these procedures just the general rule. Anyway, if you’re anywhere near paying market rate compensation and their three step, the first step is getting advance approval by the board of directors before you enter into that compensation transaction. Actor thie interested party if there’s uninterested director in there is going to be compensated, obtained from that boat and does not participate in that. Okay? And that would include a gn executive officer who’s who’s on the board. Because of that position, ex officio boardmember they should they should abstain as well if we’re talking about their compensation. Right. Okay, so you get the advance approval with with the abstention of the person who’s involved what it would else duitz step two is reliance on appropriate comparability data. So we’re looking at comparable salaries from similarly situated organizations for similar positions of similar work. So it’s all about getting the right comparable. It might be done through salary surveys, working with professionals that our salary experts in the non-profit mary-jo or maybe looking at form nine nineties, they’re different concerns about just taking other organizations form nine nineties to make sure that the right comparable but a lot of smaller organizations do it that way. What what are those? Well, before we go on, what are those concerns about using the nine? Ninety? Well, they might not reflect in the nine, ninety special payments and vesting of, like deferred compensation. So some organizations may look like they’re playing a really high salary, but those were just the result of past. Things that have been obligations that were paid in the reporting year. So you can’t really consider that a part of the the annual salary, for example, of that executive that showing on the nine, ninety that would not be good. Comparable. Okay, so, i mean, can a small charity avoid having to hyre ah, compensation expert to do these comparability surveys? What are the other ways? Or maybe there is no other way. Well, there are some compensation surveys that are out there for free as well. You confined things from charity navigator. And i believe guys start might have some some compensation norvig wolber free. You have to be careful, though, because sometimes the ranges of the size of the organization don’t play in your favor. So, you know, they may say, well, this is the average compensation for organizations with annual budget between one million and ten million. And depending upon where you fit in that structure, using the average may not be appropriate for your organization. Right? Okay. Okay. Um, and then add a couple more things to the comparability that it’s? Because you brought a small organization a general rule for organizations with less than one billion and gross receipts toe have at least three. Comparable. So it’s. Not necessarily this. You know why spread search for comparability data. But tow have three is generally considered reasonable. And another thing to consider is this really just giving you an idea of the band with a salary that’s out there, but it would be problematic. Front organizations just look based purely on numbers and decide. Ok, just because it’s it’s in the band with that that’s appropriate on that kind of goes back to your example of the football coaches where sometimes just so you that if you keep pushing the upper limit of the band when you just start to see these ranges leaves up and up and you really do need to look at the performance and the duties that are being like that? Yes. Okay, of course. The right, the person’s performance as well. Not just what other people are paying somebody similar in a similar organization. Okay, thank somebody. Thank you. Look at the geography. Because i know in manhattan in san francisco, where we are the average salary’s going to be much higher than somewhere in des moines, iowa. Yeah, okay. Okay. And there’s one more part to the rebuttable presumption. Can you can you explain that in about a minute? Gene? Yeah, the third part is just timely an adequate documentation of the board action. So that means really putting it down in the minutes on getting those minutes approved by the next board meeting. So you just want to make sure that you’ve documented it and if you’ve got comparable, attach the comparable to the minutes to prove that the board has actually looked at these before making that determination and approval. All right, now that we’ve explained the three prongs of the rebuttable presumption gene, please explain what the hell a rebuttable presumption is that’s great, what what it does is it shift the burden from your organization have to prove that the salary is reasonable and shift it to the irs to prove that it’s unreasonable, which the irs doesn’t want to do because it takes a lot of work. So if you just go through these procedures, you kind of put a big barrier to the irs to go after you brew for paying excessive amount because you say i’ve used the procedures that treasury regulations have approved. This is the way it should be done in the iris used to get it back off at that point, unless they think they have a really big fight. So then write if you follow these procedures, the compensation is presumed to be reasonable. But the irs has the option, although it it’s unlikely that it would exercise it to rebut that presumption and try to prove that the compensation was unreasonable. Is that right? If they want to take it to court if there were. Okay. Okay. Likely. Okay, but it’s presumed rash reasonable if you follow the three prongs that you laid out, correct. Okay, we’re going to take a break. And when we come back, jean and emily and i are going to a little role play exercise, we’re going to be the board of directors and we’re going to decide on somebody’s compensation. Um, i don’t know one of you two is going to chair the meeting, so you’re welcome over this break to figure out who that’s going to be and i’m going to be a boardmember and then the other person be boardmember too. So stay with us for that role play. Exercise don’t know. What’s going to happen. I hope you’ll stay with us. Talking. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com how’s your game want to improve your performance, focus and motivation? Than you need. Aspire, athletic, consulting, stop second guessing yourself. Move your game to the next level, bring back the fun of the sport, help your child build confidence and self esteem through sports. Contact dale it aspire, athletic consulting for a free fifteen minute power session to get unstuck. Today, your greatest athletic performance is just a phone call away at eight a one six zero four zero two nine four or visit aspire consulting. Dot vp web motivational coaching for athletic excellence aspire to greatness. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Durney i got more live listener love laurel, maryland bend, oregon, and tokyo. Welcome to our second listener in tokyo. We got more tokyo listeners than we have oregon or south carolina or north carolina listeners maurin tokyo than, uh, most other states listening. Okay? Jean emily, we’re talking about compensation, compensation, clarity, and we’re going to our role play board board meeting now. Who’s the chair. I’m okay. Genes. The chair. Emily, you and i are board members or way just regular boardmember zor is one of our compensation under discussion or what? I think we’re about boardmember okay, but neither of us has our compensation under consideration. We removed that person’s removed. Okay. All right, go ahead. Jean. You’re gonna share the meeting. Okay, tony so right now we’re talking about approving the compensation of the candidate who is going to be our executive. Wait a minute. We didn’t approve. We didn’t prove last month’s meeting meeting minutes. What kind of what kind of foisting? Of ah, fake what? We didn’t approve last minutes less months. Meaning melkis consent agenda earlier, tunney and now we’re on the second part of our meeting. We’re okay. All right, go ahead. I’m taking my time, taking my fiduciary duty very seriously. I don’t care, loyalty and what’s my third fiduciary duty. Besides karen loyalty, a lot of people like this, they obedience obedience. Okay, well, i’m not all right. Well, i mean, i’m failing on three, but but i’m taking my first two very seriously. All right, go ahead. Emily. Emily obviously doesn’t care, but she’s like lester, let me see lackluster boardmember i hope your term is up soon. Emily all right, okay, so we’ve got an executive director that we need to hire, and this executive director is pushing us for a salary of one hundred thousand dollars and the possibility of bonuses of up to twenty thousand dollars for pizza. We’ve got a million bucks in our budget, and we’re not really sure whether approve this compensation or not. He looks like a great candidate, but there’s some other candidates out there as well. What do you think, tony? Should should we hire this person that the salary they’re asking for? Well, do we have any comparable data by organizations that are similar to ours? Go thin geographics and also annual budget on dh with that data also be comparable in terms of this person’s responsibilities. Emily, i think you were convicted. You right? Collecting this data? Yeah. So i researched some organizations that of similar type similar size and similar roles of executive directors. And i found three different data points. So, uh, one and these they’re all in our geographical area. One is eighty thousand one. Report ninety thousand and another one report. One hundred and ten thousand. Okay. We’re looking at one hundred thousand with the possibility of a twenty thousand dollar bonus. What do you think, tony? Um, i guess the bass sounds or so we have. Eighty ninety. First of all, i’m assuming that emily knows what she’s doing when she says that these things are similar. And i’m putting a lot of faith in her because i could be personally liable if this turns out to be excessive compensation. Um, only if you know that it’s excessive, sonny, but that’s. All right, that’s. Right. Ok. Raise a good point about the line. What do you need? A reliable source. Okay, well, your outstanding young lawyer. So i’ll assume that you’re on. You’re on the board. Very in doing this. Surveys what i brought. To the board meeting, and we’re going to attach them to the minutes of the okay, i like the i’d liketo like the base of one hundred. I’m not sure about the extra bonus of twenty family. What do you think about that extra bonus of twenty when the high of our comparable is only one ten? I don’t think it’s necessarily problematic if we have adequate justification for allowing that for example, if thiss opportunity with this executive director is probably going to pass us by, we are in a bind because we’re now doing an executive director succession that we didn’t anticipate and the organization’s going to be really hurt if we don’t find somebody who’s qualified and this is the most qualified person we found and we’re actually getting a really good deal for this person and it is discretionary, so it’s going to be up to the board at the end of the year and we have put a limit on it, you know, maybe we should evaluate again looking at our revenues and looking again at the comparability data whether twenty thousand is reasonable, but i’m not opposed to putting the opportunity of a bonus. Into the contract right now, that’s. A bunch of malarkey. I’m walking out of this meeting. Did you hear me? Did you? My footsteps and i just slammed the door closed, proposed i’ll ask to see if there’s a motion to approve a one hundred thousand dollars based salary with a possibility of a ten thousand dollar bonus. And we will actually look at the possibility of a further ten thousand dollar bonus if we hit certain revenue goals that might allow us to look at other comparable, do you think that’s reasonable? All right, i’ll come back into the meeting. All right? I’ll go along with that. We have to wrap up our meeting very quickly. Yes, i would approve that. Okay, so then we make the most of it. Tony wilbekin were approved way as we wrap this up, being the diligent boardmember right? And just a reminder that we need to have adequate documentation and our board minutes. So i’m going to write down the terms of the transaction. We approve the date it was approved, the board members that were present during the debate. Who voted. I’m not going to attack the comparability data on there and as well document the fact that we followed our conflict of interest policy and removed the executive director from the conversation that was emily chan she’s, a maternity at neo, the non-profit exempt organizations law group and our board chair was jean takagi he’s, the principal of neo. You’ll find them both blogging at non-profit law blogged, dot com, gene and emily, thank you very much. My pleasure. I hope you will be here next week because we’ll be talking about leadership with normal sanski he’s, a consultant and co editor of you and your non-profit that’s a book and he shares his advice on non-profit leadership, his premises. Everything starts with leadership also linked in news. Maria simple, the prospect finder and our prospect research contributor, has two new offerings from linked in board connect to help you find the right people to serve on your board. Hopefully you get better board members and we just had and reasons to call, reveals touchpoint for making contact with the people you want to talk to have you joined are linked in group pakistan is in, i’m telling you, pakistan is a member. Are you in the lincoln group along with pakistan? Continue the conversations with our guests in the lincoln group i’m on twitter you can follow me the show’s hashtag is non-profit radio. I’m also on foursquare. We can connect any of those places. Check us out on facebook next week i will have a new way to wish you good luck the way performers do around the world have been doing this for weeks. So right now you’re still with last week, i’m wishing you a nail in your tire from estonia. No, comey, our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is our line producer. The show’s social media is by regina walton of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules today’s show dedicated to my dear friend dave. Ironically, what i remember about him most is his laughter and his smile. I’m very sorry, dave, that you were suffering so much hope you were with me next week. Friday one to two p, m eastern at talking alternative dot com. Hyre durney durney i didn’t think that shooting. Good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get anything. Cubine hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Are you stuck in your business career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people. Buy-in you’re listening to talking alt-right network at www. Dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti athlete named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication. And the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com that’s improving communications, dot com improve your professional environment. Be more effective, be happier. And make more money. Improving communications. That’s. The answer. Dahna hyre

106: Campaign Volunteers & Fiscal Sponsorship – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Rich Foss, consultant and author of “Greenlight Fundraising”

Gene Takagi & Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.com

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Hello and welcome to the show, it’s tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, how i hope you were that you were with me last week. That’s all i just hope you were here. We had grow grassroots michael o’brien, founder and principal of mob advocacy. He knows how to bring people to your cause with grassroots advocacy. How do you activate people? What are grass tops? We talked about that and how do you engage those people? Where do you go to meet potential coalition partners and what’s the added value for your work around grassroots advocacy and divine devices, desktops, laptops, tablets and handhelds? Scott koegler had tips for picking the right device to fit your budget, your work style and personality. You know him? He’s, the editor of non-profit technology news and our monthly tech contributor. Of course, this week, campaign volunteers rich foss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising we, he and i are going to talk about the importance of volunteer leadership in your campaign, how to recruit your chair and lead donor and the other volunteers you need in place and what their jobs are and has lots of descriptions and other resources that will go up on linkedin and facebook after the show today and fiscal sponsorships. Our legal team jean takagi and emily chan from the non-profit and exempt organizations law group make sense of this complicated relationship. What it is, why your office might become a sponsor or sponsoring and what that looks like and how to get started between the guests on tony’s take two big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent you’ve heard that already. Today my block this week is to encourage you to listen to the show and since that’s a paradox, i’ll have some other things to talk about other ways to connect on tony’s take two here’s the first one, of course hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us on twitter right now, we take a break, and when we return it’s campaign volunteers on rich fost will join me. I hope you stay here co-branding think dick tooting getting dink dink, dink dink, you’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. Thank you. You could join the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city in pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve, save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot or or a nj dot net. Hi, i’m donna, and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family, court, co, parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more. Dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever. Join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Dahna welcome back, live listener love going out new bern, north carolina? Oh, how i miss north carolina haven’t been there for a few months, but i will be there soon september welcome new bern and we’ve got more live listener love as the show goes on right now, my guest is rich fuss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising your sustainable fund-raising guide to raising fifty thousand to five hundred thousand dollars a year to light up the eyes of people you serve and your donor’s hope the book is shorter than its title. Rich he’s been in fund-raising over twenty nine years as both staff and a consultant he’s with me from rural illinois, where he’s, the leader of a mennonite community rich fast welcome to the show. Thank you, tony. I’m really glad to be here today. It’s my pleasure to have you, uh, we’re talking about campaign volunteers. What what’s the role of volunteers in a campaign about in my career, i worked with community non-profits and usually there’s only one or two development staff, and so i really wanted to develop a system that could be a multiplier for for staff and also that could really use the gold standard of fund-raising, which is, is. You raise a lot more money when you sit down face to face with somebody and describe the organization and ask them for a gift. Face-to-face and so, basically, i developed this system where you recruit volunteers and have them sit down with face-to-face with people and ask forgiveness for your non-profit and, uh, uh, not promise that have developed our have a doubt that it it’s been very special for them. Now we have a drug in jail on tony martignetti non-profit radio, and i hate to do it to you in this very first segment. But you said volunteers are our multipliers for for the charity? What? Why do you what does that mean? Basically, what it means is that that a development director, even if they go out and ask forgiveness, face-to-face, uh, can only meet with so many people each week or each year, and if you have aa group of passionate volunteers, uh, bacon meet with her a lot more people in a much shorter period of time and, uh, that’s why i call it a multiplier, okay, so early parole from jog in jail, but what your step you don’t you don’t want a second offense while you’re on parole. The let’s see, i’ve heard that it’s really? I mean, volunteers and i’ve had guests say this volunteers are the leaders of the campaign. Is that do you? Do you believe that over rather than the staff of the charity? Uh, definitely definitely. And that’s why? In setting up the system, the very first step is to recruit the campaign chair person who you want to have a very influential person in your community be the campaign chair person because their leadership will influence a lot of other people to, uh, to join your campaign. And so that that leadership role is extremely important. Okay? And we’re gonna have some time to talk about how to recruit that campaign chair is as well as some other volunteers, but what’s the role of the charity’s staff in all this. Then if the if the campaign is being led by volunteers, well, basically, i describe it. The role of the the, uh, campaign staff is particularly development staff. He used to run the system. Sometimes i like in these campaigns like an ipad. The ipad spring is very simple. And yet behind it, there’s a whole lot of details. Well, what you want to do in these campaigns is to create the systems and the details in such a way that it’s very easy for the the er staff are executing the volunteers to do their work, and so that requires a lot of work, a lot of organizational detail, a lot of of of work on the part of the development. Okay, now you’ve been doing this for nearly thirty years, so you can’t always have been like getting this toe ipad. What you used to look like in tow the old pong game or what? What did you used to liking it, too? Twenty nine years ago. Oh, okay, well, i didn’t have any metaphors until i was the brother typewriter. When you push the half space key. What i love just love about those type, you know? You know there’s? No, they didn’t used to be an exclamation mark on typewriters. I’m sure you remember that, right? Right. Had you had to do a period and then a back space and then a apostrophe to get an exclamation mark and that’s my theories. Why they’re overused now because there is an exclamation keith but that’s a little bit of a digression. I suppose. We have just a couple minutes before we take a break let’s from so so the so the staff is doing the systems. I mean, they’re they’re basically they’re supporting the volunteer leadership then is that is that? I have that right. Okay, okay. Now, before we could do the campaign chair, your advice is that there be a pre campaign committee. I don’t want to spend too much time on that, but just like a minute and a half before a break, tell us about the pre campaign committee, okay? Basically, you know, a lot of community non-profits their boards don’t get formed based on fund-raising. And so when i developed the system, i decided that we needed to have a group that was focused right on fund-raising and so generally what you do in the pre campaign committee, you get together, the executive director, maybe past boardmember the current board members, people who are influential, the most influential people in your community that are connected to your organization form that that, uh, campaign committee, because basically it takes influential people to recruit influential people, and so that prepaid campaign campaign committee gets together and identifies, okay, who are? The the top five people that could serve that in our community, that could serve in that role of campaign chairperson. Of course, if you put it, if you put dick cheney on your pre campaign committee, then he’s going to want to be campaign chair. Well, if you’re lucky, there might be somebody on your on your your pre campaign committee who could serve his chair. But especially in the first year, you want to go after the absolutely best person in your community, because that’s going to make your campaign sustainable because you want to do this every year, okay, which way a person. First, it works much better the next year. Okay, we’re going to take a break. We’ll come back and talk more about the campaign pre-tax paint committee leading into the campaign chair. Stay with us, talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology, no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect, no more it’s time for action. Join me, larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what you’re born, teo you society, politics, business and family. It’s, provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to go what’s really going on. What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me, larry sharp, your neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven, new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower, radio, dot com for every time i was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education listening tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back. We’ve got more live listener love going out to massachusetts, spencer, massachusetts and no handup massachusetts, welcome to the broadcast with rich foster. We’re talking about fiscal sorry we’re talking about campaign volunteers, which fast, you probably want to talk about fiscal sponsorship, do you? I don’t care. You have expertise. Yeah, i don’t even particularly. I’m not looking forward to it, but we are going to want to talk about campaign volunteers on dh were in our pre campaign committee. So the this group of community leaders is assembled to to choose the people who would be good prospects for the campaign chair. Correct. Okay. And you did say if the pre campaign committee should include the the executive director of the charity? Correct. All right. Is that really the only should that be the only staff person employee of the charity? You’re often the development director will also be a part of it. Okay? And then other people who are prominent in the campaign co-branded community in there, in the community. Okay, so what’s their what’s, their process this as they as they narrowed down the prospects that they move toward asking somebody, uh, basically what? They do is the first thing they do is identify probably five people, possible people and then rank them. And basically, i suggest this because, uh, i learned from my mistakes the very first campaign that i was involved with. We we identified the next best person asked that person and they said no, and that happened four times. Yeah, so that’s. A lot of disappointment for a committee of mostly volunteers. That’s, right, that’s, right. Very disconcerting and out. The fifth person said yes and ended up to be a very a very good campaign chair person. So what was the lesson lesson from that? Yes, i learned from that identified five people right away. Rank them and that way, if you if somebody says no, you don’t have to push the panic button. Okay, your committee of volunteers is not disillusioned. That’s, right? They got others to go to. Ok, it’s right on. You have some pretty specific advice about about this process and even the meeting with with the candidates. Yeah, yeah. The the recruiting of volunteers is really, really serious business tonight i have a son who played division one basketball in fact, colgate university and so i got to see first hand the basketball recruiting process, and one of those guys are highly organized, and the same charities have to do the same thing. I have to plan things out very carefully and basically, you have to identify, okay, who’s going to on this pre campaigning committee, who’s the best person to invite the person to a breakfast or lunch where they can be approach who’s the best person to ask them to be the campaign chairperson and in the there’s, a lot of details that you and i have planned out, and you’re doing this for each of your five candidates. Yes, well, you do it for the first one and and then, you know, if you have to go to the second one, you do it, but all planned. I mean, do you even recommend people sort of role, role playing or any kind of mock mock meetings? Teo, talk about you’re going to say this and she’s going to say that, etcetera, i don’t know if you need to do the role playing, but you need to identify who was going to say what you know, so that that, uh, like the reason you involve the executive director is you need to have someone who could describe the non-profit and also who can tell a powerful story about the work of a non-profit and, uh, so you basically need to figure out the roles before you before you set up the meeting, okay? Okay. And at what point should you share the the sort of job description of the campaign chair with the with the prospect? Well, i, uh i would do it verbally during during the meeting and then, uh, attended the meeting just give them the job description, ok? You don’t want to read it during them during the meeting, but you want them to have something to refer to when they’re when they’re considering it. Rich has a model job description for the campaign chair and lots of other helpful resource is we’re going to mention a couple of them, but you’ll find, ah, whole list of them around this topic of campaign volunteers on my on linked in group for the show and also on the show’s facebook page after after the show, those will be posted and rich, who lets see who i should be the person to actually make the ask at the meeting is that should not be the person who’s the the closest to them. Or should it be the executive director? Or how do you decide who actually says we invite you to be our campaign chair? You basically need to ask who is the most influential person in terms of who’s who provoc perspective, campaign chair, person who’s? Who are they most likely say yes to ok. And that’s also the campaign pre campaign committee simply asked that question and hash is without among them and that’s, the person you asked, okay? And around a giving a gift expectation for the campaign chair. Certainly the person’s going to need a campaign they have to give. Correct. What do you like to see in terms of asking what? Telling them what they’re what the charities expectation is around that in an ideal world, they would give the elite gift. Uh, but way lived in an ideal world. You’d be on a much better. Show them this way. So we know that that’s out. Okay, i would be much more fluid. Uh, so you more support thing is influence not with e-giving ability of course you want them to give you want. You prefer to get them to give a major gift they clearly have to give, but they may not be able to give at the league gift level. Okay, uh, but their primary role is to be the chief influence in the campaign. So if they’re involved, you want everyone to say, wow, this is this is an important bilich event or important campaign in our community because this person i see ok, and also they become the person that it’s hard for other people to say no to write that’s, right? Because right, because they’re going to be responsible for recruiting other volunteers and asking people for gift. So say little about that, okay, the, um the campaign chair person will be responsible for recruiting the division chairs and that’s going to vary from community community, uh, in a larger city, you might do it by, you know, geography or, you know, a suburb or by industry that’s sort of part of the planning process. But whatever divisions you come up with, there needs to be a chairperson for that debate division. And, uh, you want your campaign chair person to recruit, recruit them. Okay, right. And you want to make that somebody that it’s hard to say no to that, right? Okay, so let’s spend a little time. By the way, just listeners were talking to rich boss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising we’re talking about the use of volunteers in your campaign rich why don’t you tell people where they can find your book? Green light fund-raising that or okay, green light fund-raising dot org’s let’s talk now, since you’re starting to lead us there. But you’re not taking over the show, which for some some guests get a little presumptuous. Take over the show. You’re not taking over the show. Appreciate it. I’ll follow your lead. You’re in trouble going off a cliff. Thie let’s talk you started brought into a bigger staff of volunteers. What should that? What? It’s? A little more. Besides the division heads. What should this broader volunteer kadre look like? Okay? One of one of the things that the development director needs to do is to develop a gift charges and the gift chart basically says what level of gifts need to be asked for and received in order to achieve. The goal, and then there are are once you have that, you can identify the number of volunteers you do, and i won’t go into all the process. But basically for every gift you need, you need three prospects. Right? Okay. And you want your volunteers to, uh, ask five people for gift. So this is hyre mathematics now. Okay, it’s. Just a matter of each volunteer. No, it’s hyre math for me anyway, so every volunteer as to ask five people that’s, right? Ok. That’s, right. And so well, you can figure based on your gift chart, you can figure out what you need to talk to so many prospects. And are you okay? Tio, meet your goal and you divide that by five. And then, you know, you’re a number of volunteers, okay? And that’s another one of the resource is that we have is that is not in the list of raving. Okay, there’s there’s a, uh an excel spreadsheet that has, ah, gift shark in it. And it also includes the breakdown of volunteers. Okay, excellent. And again, you’ll find those on the linked in group for the show and also the facebook page and then those air links back to teo richie site um, now we like to see volunteers recruiting their own teams isn’t isn’t that right? Yes, rather than having them posed by the staff that’s, right? It’s basically, because, you know, this is all volunteers doing it. They’re going to have to the leaders of the team leaders we’re gonna have to yeah, you know, do some gentle pushing to get things done, and they’re going to be able to do that much better with people that they know their friends. And so you want them, you want to strongly encourage them to recruit people that they know it, and, like and trust that the charity is putting a lot of faith and trust and like into it’s volunteers? I mean, there really are e-giving a lot of responsibility to this to this volunteer. Kadre yeah, yeah, and so, you know, one of the one of the the important roles, but particularly the development director does is is built strong relationships with the campaign leaders so that the campaign league leaders know that they’re going to have the support of the staff, and it really gives them confidence in their work and that kind of flows through the whole campaign. Okay, just the important point that this really is a ah delegation to the volunteers it is it is, yeah, yeah, and part of what happens is that, you know, i emphasized over and over again is you have to tell the stories of your non-profit because these dramatic stories of either wives transformed or also of, uh, the needs of non-profits mitnick is meeting really energizes the volunteers and gives them really meaning and purpose and what they’re doing way have a segment on the next show. My guest is rochelle shoretz and she’s going to talk a lot about storytelling in rain in the second half of next week’s show. Great, because i would really encourage people will listen to that or has, uh, stories are just absolutely essential when working with volunteers, which what is it that you love about? Fund-raising it seems, lives transformed, you know, the i’ve had so many people, you know, talk to me over the years and say things like, man, i can’t do that, you know, that’s begging for me, it’s not begging, you know, i tell people, you know, a panhandler bag. A fundraiser transforms lives. Yes. Give us a story. Give tell a little story about some some life that you’ve seen transformed our lives. Yeah, i was actually influenced in developing this model by doing a capital campaign. And, uh, when i did this capital campaign, i was working for an organization that provides services to people of developmental disabilities. And, um, there were about seventy people that we had living in a nursing home, and we wanted to shut that nursing home down and make it possible for them to live in a small group, homes. And there was one guy, particularly, uh, and, uh, i want to give his name, but i would talk to him. And any time this topic came about pizza, you know me. I like peace and quiet. And he was living in an extremely noisy nursing home, you know? And, uh, i remember we did this campaign. You know, it was a tremendous dahna taking for the organization never dahna campaign before raising one point, two million dollars dahna, uh, community of, you know, seven thousand people. And i went and visited him in his new home. And that was so moving you. Know to see him, you know, getting the peace and quiet and he’s long he probably living this nursing home for twenty years or so, you know, and see his life. How has changed? It was just amazing just by having a quiet environment very touching. Yeah, rich, we have just a minute left. I’m going to hold you to that. But can you tell us what? What lesson? What a lesson that we might all take from the mennonite community around fund-raising of the mineral rights. Uh, not only do fund-raising but they’re also very action oriented. One of their one of our services called mennonite disaster surface and so many knights from all over the u s will go to places where tornadoes go through hurricanes and they’ll clean up. No, they were down in in er not bad. Duitz of louisiana, new orleans, new orleans yeah, you know, helping clean green. And i remember hearing the stories of, you know, incredible work that they did buy the good friend who is on their way. I have to stop their rich shirt rich boss is joining us from rural illinois where he’s, the leader of a mennonite community. He’s, the author of green light, fund-raising, which you’ll find at green light fund-raising dot org’s rich. Thank you so much for being on. Yeah, thankyou. Tony, i really appreciate being here. It’s been my pleasure. Thank you. Now we take a break, and when we return it’s tony’s, take two little more live listener love and then gene and emily on fiscal sponsorships. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot order or a nj dot net. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. I’m ken berger of charity navigator. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Welcome back, we got live listener love going out to laurel, maryland and also malaysia. I don’t know which city in malaysia, but laurel, maryland, malaysia welcome tony’s take to my block this week encourages people to listen to the show you are obviously already past that, so i have the advanced course for you. I want you to know that i continue the conversation from the show in the linked in group last week, i had a follow up question for michael o’brien about civil disobedience, which we didn’t get a chance to talk to talk about in his conversation around grassroots organizing, and this week, as i mentioned, the templates and other resource is from rich foss will be in that linked in group. They’ll also be on the facebook page, so next time you’re on linked in, please check out our group and join also twitter no there’s me and the hashtag, and you can follow me on twitter the hashtag of courses non-profit radio if you want to know who the guests are going to be each week, i send email alerts every thursday on the facebook page. My voice just broke thursday like i’m twelve again, um and you can sign up for those email alerts. I just said that on the facebook page and then you’ll know in advance for the guests are maybe you don’t care. I understand you may just be subscribing and you don’t really care who’s going to be on because you know that the guests are all going to be smart and that the host is in question, but you can always count on good guest. Um, i also won four square. If you want to connect with me on four square, i’ll see where you are in the world and you can see where i hang out. Check me out on foursquare and that is the end of tony’s take two for friday, august twenty fourth, the thirty sixth show of the year we have jean takagi and emily chan gene is the principle of neo, the non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco, he edits the popular non-profit law blogged dot com and he’s g tak g ta k on twitter. Emily chan is an attorney at neo-sage she’s, principal contributor to the non-profit law blogged, and she is the american bar association’s two thousand twelve outstanding young non-profit lawyer i don’t know why she’s still on the show. I’m sure she can have certain you could do better than this. Now that you have that appellation, you can follow emily chan on twitter she’s at emily chan, jean and emily welcome back. Hi, tony. Tony. Hello, emily. You’re still on that. You’re still coming on the show. Thank you for that. Everything about you for having me even if you got the prestigious award. Um, let’s. See, we’re talking about fiscal sponsorships. If there was ever if you ever needed evidence that the contributors choose the topics, this would be it fiscal sponsorships. A little little technical, but i’m willing to go into it. What is jean a fiscal sponsorship? Well, i’m gonna try to get a dog in jail. Yeah. Good luck. Were already there. Fiscal sponsorship let’s define this before out and its most common form. It’s. Really a way to start a non-profit project without creating a whole new nonprofit organizations. So basically, what happens? You’ve got a charitable project or an idea that you want to implement. You bring it to a charity willing to serve as the fiscal sponsor on who’s willing to operate that program within the organization so it becomes a negro part of that organization. And you reserve the right by contact. Be able to move the project to another physical sponsor if things don’t work out or you could even move it into your own nonprofit organization that you form once you know that the project is viable. That’s great. Thank you. Okay, you cut out a little bit. There is great incubator, i believe, is what you said, right? That’s okay, so we have the sponsor. Is it the sponsor? And the sponsoring? Is that how we should be referring to these two? Mostly referred to them as a sponsor and the proud sponsor and project. Okay, all right. We’ll keep our terms straight. Okay? And could gene could the could the project be another charity or that that’s? Not that’s, not how it works. Well, the like a smaller charity could be a smaller another charity don’t have to apply for tax exemption. Just actually running a program that you’ve introduced to another charity. And so you’re kind of head of that program. But the program is owned by the other to charity with the caveat that you, khun, take that program and bring it to another charity if the relationship sours in some way. Okay, okay, now, emily, i’m going to guess we would we would only want as a sponsor of our project. Oh, and established charity. Yes, picking the right physical sponsor is a huge part of getting the advantages of a physical sponsorship relationship, as jeanne mentioned. You know, they have a lot of control over the project. They take on a lot of responsibility generally with, like the admin and all the back office things, and they’re also managing the funds that would help fund your project that you definitely want to pick someone or excuse me of charity that has a good reputation in the community has some experience, possibly with physical sponsorship already. So they have the process is in place and one that aligned well with the mission. Otherwise you’re going to run into a certain problems. Sure. Well, and i would imagine a charity wouldn’t wouldn’t take you as a project if there wasn’t mission alignment, hopefully not. And that is a big part for the physical sponsor to be sure that they understand why. They’re taking on certain projects. Sometimes, you know, you’re so eager to want to help a charitable project that you do start to go outside of your own mission without, you know, taking care of your organization. Emerge. That’s risky. Mission creep. Mission creep. Okay, now what? Um what should a charity be looking? Oh, no, wait. I want to want to ask you, emily, you mentioned that the sponsor manages the money, so the money doesn’t belong to the project. It belongs to the sponsor. That’s correct. So entertainment in the typically a project that doesn’t already have tax exempt status, would it really make sense in that situation? So essentially, the physical sponsor is taking in money for the charitable purposes of the project, but that sinful sponsor, in order to not essentially acted like a conduit or to collapse and basically give money teo, non exempt entity. They have to have discretion and control over the funds. So there’s a certain level of oversight that the physical sponsors should be exercising with the project to make sure that it’s no operating properly, that the money being used the right way and that at every juncture, essentially when it does. You use the money to fund a project that is making that decision as opposed to just letting it pass through. Okay. And when you refer to the non exempt entity that’s, the that’s, the project. Right. Okay. Okay, let’s, stay with you, emily. So what’s the advantage for an existing charity cause our clients. Sorry. Our listeners are our charities mostly. And when you guys were first on the very first show that you two were on, we talked about alternatives to creating a new five. Oh, one c three charity. And we just barely touched on this subject. S o we have we have talked about altum other alternatives to creating a charity, but what’s the advantage to an established charity. Emily tbe a fiscal sponsor of projects for the fiscal sponsor it’s really about furthering that sponsored mission. So again, we talked about mission alignment. If you find projects that further, you know, the charitable purpose of your organization, not a huge benefit for the physical sponsor. Additionally, they do take generally a cut of the funds to take care of that back office stuff. I mean, they’re taken care of let’s. Say, you know payroll, you know, their insurance, maybe covering the project. All of these things take some money as well. It’s not really a money maker again. It really should be about furthering the mission. The charitable mission of the existing sponsor. But they do take some money generally in order to cover their cost. Ok. So now, gene, i assume we can just look to the internal revenue code and that will lay out these fiscal sponsorship responsibilities and relationships. Actually, no tony physical sponsor ship is not defined in any laws. I don’t think any state laws and definitely not in the internal revenue code so it’s all about the contract. So we want to make sure that you’re working with an established sponsor who can establish the right contacts to comply under the regular five a onesie, three rules. Holy cow. All right. So eyes. So there must be things that are supposed to be in these contracts. And again, were you know, our listeners are are the charities. So if somebody’s going to take this on this fiscal sponsorship because they do see mission alignment and the things that emily described? What what’s your advice around creating this? Contract if there’s there’s no statutes governing this relationship well, this may sound a little funny, but you’ve got to talk to the lawyers think this arrangement for the does that lawyer have to be the outstanding young lawyer of twenty twelve from the american bar association? You can’t go wrong with that, right? That’s what you absolutely cannot just outstanding and it’s in the title, so we know, but in case you don’t happen to have access to emily, although through the internet there’s no reason anybody shouldn’t be hiring emily, but you’re right, so you definitely this is definitely a legal relationship, and you need a lawyer drafting this contract, right? And to understand your responsibilities as a sponsor, there’s a great book out there from a no attorney colleague of ours, greg colvin called physical sponsorship six ways to do it right. And there’s, a organization called the national network of fiscal sponsors that publishes guidelines for fiscal sponsors and their best practices, including what they put into a physical sponsorship, agreements and policies. Those are definitely things that wanted checked out. Okay, and how does your friend, your colleague, spell his last name? Greg coben, ceo b i n okay. The guru of fiscal okay. Six ways to do it right. But there’s probably dozens of scores of ways to do it wrong. I’m sure in fact we actually put out a block both staying six days to do it wrong. So they definitely are. Did you? Okay, let sze not a copyright infringement. Wait, you do intellectual property work over there in the non-profit exempt organizations law group, not it out you don’t that’s. Very convenient. Okay, so it could very well be a copyright infringement. No, i’m sure it’s not a lawyer now. It’s fair. You some sure or something? I don’t know who does. Okay, so, emily let’s go into a little detail about structures around this sponsor project relationship and just we have about two minutes before first break. So what? What does it look like? Yeah, the structures, there’s models? Yes, there are. There are a handful model that actually comes out of that book that great colden. I wrote that gene mentioned the most popular one is the one that we we’ve been discussing. Model a also called the comprehensive or excuse me. Comprehensive physicals, sponsorship or direct project and it’s, when the charity basically houses the project, okay, in terms of all the management and the insurance and all that, all those things that you laid out, right, so it would be just like any other program it’s operating. Except for that caveat that is a relationship to find my contract. And there is a contemplation that the project may leave at some point. Ok, i don’t model a not a very clever name. I mean, i thought great could come up with something better than model a, but we’ll work with it. He’s the he’s, the guru. So we’ll work within his his, uh, sort of lacklustre. Um, his his, uh what i want to call this this is the, uh uh, i can’t think of the word i’ll think of it later. Okay, um and so all these things that you talked about before these all have to be in the contract, right? In terms of management responsibilities and insurance and oversight and all this it should be. And again, it just helps to lay out exactly what this relationship is going to look like because of the fact that it’s defined by the contract, i mean any pickles sponsorship could look a little different from another one. That is important to contemplate as much as possible at the outset as opposed to finding those problems. When you start trying to do this, ok. And the one that interested me, that gene mentioned a couple times is the right to leave the, uh, leave the, uh the the sponsor. Yeah. So that’s, very important for both the project on the sponsor to understand what terms and conditions might apply for that. So in some cases, maybe this sponsor is going to require that the project finds another five oh, one c three entity to house it. Maybe they’re willing, teo, do some other kind of due diligence to grant those funds that they held for those charitable purposes to the project. These are all things that you really want to think about beforehand. Ok, ok. Rubric. That was the word i was looking for. Model a is a rubric. This all falls under the rubric of model a i do. It was the board would come to me rubric. Of course, we’re going to take a break. And when we return, gene and emily stay with me. And we continue talking about fiscal sponsorships. That’s, another rubric. Com. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com how’s your game want to improve your performance, focus and motivation? Then you need a spire athletic consulting stop, second guessing yourself. Move your game to the next level, bring back the fun of the sport, help your child build confidence and self esteem through sports. Contact dale it, aspire, athletic, insulting for a free fifteen minute power session to get unstuck. Today, your greatest athletic performance is just a phone call away at eight a one six zero four zero two nine four or visit aspire consulting. Dot vp web motivational coaching for athletic excellence aspire to greatness. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome back. We’re talking. Toa jean takagi and emily chan are regular legal contributors about fiscal sponsorship. I want to send live listener love out to little wet british columbia, canada, and i apologize if from mispronouncing it, if it’s in the way or something different than i just said it, i apologize. We got last week, we had ontario in ottawa, where’s, where’s, saskatchewan. Why is saskatchewan in manitoba? Never checked in alberta? Never checked in. We need to get these provinces listening live gene let’s, turn to you and see what else we might flush out about other models around fiscal sponsorship. So since we have the very rich model, eh, there must be a model b. There are the model ate a model at the rubric. Okay, rubrics, the lackluster rubrics. I’m sorry. I’m sorry for your colleague. I’ll stop calling them lackluster. So okay, what does model be matter or or his model? See better than be? Or how does this work? Well, model is by far the most common form. Okay? I was believed to be that in, like, eighty to ninety percent of the cases. The next biggest is model b, which is called a preapproved brandt relationship models this is you cut out a little bit there. This is model season charlie model using bravo baizman bravo is not as popular as sees charlie that’s. Right? So shouldn’t see bebe. It kind of flows from the structure of the i don’t know if we can recommend this book anymore. No obstacle. Ok, tell us about model charlie model charlie is the way that an existing non-profit that still doesn’t have tax exempt status, perhaps it’s a fight to the irs but hasn’t received determination yet. Khun starts to get fun now. The sponsor can act as an intermediary if you will receiving grants intended for the project, but foundations aren’t willing to. That project until it has its own five. Oh, one team status. So it gives it to the fiscal sponsor. The fiscal sponsor re granted to the project. But it has to use its own expression and control in order to make that re grant. The foundation’s put the onus on the fiscal sponsor to do all the due diligence. Okay, emily, how does this differ from model a alfa? I’m in a lot of ways, actually. So going back to model a it’s, the project is not its own entity. It’s really? Just a program, essentially that’s being operated by the fiscal sponsors. So all the employees, all the volunteers, all the liability, it’ll sit with the physical sponsor model. See, you have more separation. So he mentioned that its own entity now the project. Maybe. You know, it’s, just the taxable corporation. It might be in its period right now. Where? It’s, waiting for its five twenty three determination. So a lot of more of the liability from that program that it’s running a charitable project with the entity. The other entity, not the physical sponsor. Okay, so this is it. Shifting the responsibility is different. That’s how? It’s different than a okay, emily, what are some examples of fiscal sponsors like could could’ve come? It is a community foundation of fiscal sponsor or could it be? It could be they’re really as there is no riel limitation on who could be or what type of entity could be a physical sponsor. Generally speaking, you see it more calmly and just five a onesie three entities, because they’re able to get those contributions that can offer a tax deduction to individuals as well as bring in some private foundation grant. So you see it a lot with five eleven three entities, but as far as the mission of those entities or what it is that they’re doing this there’s no limitation on that, okay? And just we have just a minute left. Emily, where do we usually see this conversation begin? Does it does it start with the ceo of the of the sponsor thinking about bringing in projects or just started the board level where i think it actually starts with the project approaching on today’s out there that either have already decided to do it? But i think most commonly, it might start with the project. That is looking for a physical sponsor. Gene could shed somewhere like him and he actually sits on the board of community initiative, which is a physical. Okay, jean, we have just thirty seconds. Do you want to shed some light as emily cast it upon you? Sure, there’s a website called fiscal sponsored directory dot org’s, which is a good place to find a physical sponsor in your area or in your eyes. Area service. So that’s a good face to go to community foundations often engage in sponsorships and sometimes there sponsoring a project that our collaboration amongst many existing non-profit organization okay, we have to leave. I’m sorry, we have to leave it there. But that website again was fiscal sponsored directory dot org’s jean takagi. Principle of neo non-profit exempt organizations law group emily chan and attorney at neo-sage even emily, thank you very much. It’s. Always a pleasure will talk to you next month. And also, of course, want to thank rich fast for being on the show next week. We’re pre recorded because i’ll be on vacation in beautiful block island, rhode island next week. We’ll have. I had a great interview, but i didn’t get the job suzanne felder was with me at fund-raising day this past june. She’s, a consultant in outplacement for lee hecht harrison and she has advice around job search. Then, as i mentioned earlier storytelling with rochelle shoretz, founder and executive director of shark charette, they have built a culture of compassionate storytelling to help their members through their cancer diagnoses and treatments. Rochelle will have really valuable ideas on helping your charity create stories and who’s best to tell them, and she has her own touching story as a two time breast cancer survivor. Come, i want to shut out one more live listener love right here in the studio, indianapolis, indiana in the studio actually, carmel, indiana, to be exact live listener love in the studio, you know that i host a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy? Did you know that? Did you know i do it’s fund-raising fundamentals? That one is a ten minute monthly podcast and it’s on ly devoted to fund-raising topics i have a summer siri’s going on on grantspace eking the latest is building relationship with foundation program officers, and the first two were researching foundations and writing winning proposals. It’s called fund-raising fundamentals you’ll find on the chronicle of philanthropy website. You’ll also find it on itunes, continuing to wish you good luck. The way performers do around the world last week was chalk us, which means chicken in australia, in slang australian do you remember why they say chicken? You’re gonna have to go back and listen, i don’t have time to tell you today from spain monisha merida, a lot of ship, it comes from the success of a play. People would arrive at shows by carriage and what pulls a carriage, horses and what their horses leave behind shit. So the more of that you have, the better your show is. So i wish you much mierda for the week. Our creative producers claire meyerhoff, with this kind of content it’s hard to believe we have a creative producer, actually. But there is actually is one but she’s not responsible for these language lessons and this performing that comes from janice taylor. So i want to thank janice taylor. Sam liebowitz is today’s line producer shows social media is by regina walton of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. Oh, how i hope you will be with me next week. One, two, two p, m eastern on talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com. Durney dahna. I think a good ending. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get anything. Cubine hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks. Been radio. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s two one two seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people. Buy-in you’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti athlete named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication. And the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com that’s improving communications, dot com improve your professional environment. Be more effective, be happier. And make more money. Improving communications. That’s. The answer. Dahna

100: The 100th Show! It’s All Social Media – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Amy Sample Ward, membership director at Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN) and contributor to Stanford Social Innovation Review

Scott Koegler, editor of Nonprofit Technology News

Gene Takagi & Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group

Maria Semple, The Prospect Finder, consultant in prospect research and author of “Panning for Gold: Find Your Best Donor Prospects Now”

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://tonymartignetti.com

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti it’s show number one hundred high fives and knuckle bumps. It’s show number one hundred and welcome. This is big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on tony martignetti non-profit radio your aptly named host. What a coincidence that i found this show on july of two thousand ten two years ago show number one hundred today i do hope that you’re with me last week, it would cause me great vengeance and furious anger if i were to learn that you missed automated accounting with aaron schmid he’s, the chief product officer, billhighway and he thinks about a lot a lot about accounting, so you don’t have to. He had ways to improve reporting, automate and integrate accounting with your bank and online engagement to action at the fund-raising day twenty twelve conference, we were a media sponsor on the exhibit floor, interviewing speakers, and one of those was j frost, ceo of fund-raising info dot com. He talked with me about moving people from engagement online to giving online how to convert your social media friends into donors this week. It’s all social media for show number one hundred amy sample ward is a social media scientist that’s my title she’s very modest. I described that title to her she’s membership director at non-profit technology network and ten and a contributor to the stanford social innovation review. We’ve opened it up to listeners and she’s going to take all the questions that you sent in, and all our regular monthly contributors will be with us will dish on social media in the law for prospect research and in technology you know who they are. Our legal team. Jing takagi and emily chan from san francisco, the non-profit and exempt organizations law group maria simple, the prospect finder, our contributor on prospect research from new jersey and from north carolina, say but keller will be with us he’s, our technology contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news on tony’s take too. I’m going to be giving away t shirt and sunglasses for podcast listeners because this is show number one hundred use hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us on twitter. Amy sample ward is monitoring it sam, the producer is monitoring, and lynette singleton, our georgia fan club president and frequent assiduous live twitter she’s live tweeting. The show today lynette is at s c g four the number four non-profits and the hashtag is non-profit radio the show is sponsored by lap fund-raising l a lap of fund-raising dot com and i’m very grateful for their support. We have our first contest right now. A few minutes ago, i said great vengeance and furious anger. What movie is that from? Not the bible it’s in the bible, but that’s not what we’re looking for looking for the movie that that lines from you will win a copy of managing technology to meet your mission. A strategic guide for non-profit leaders donated by n ten amy, thank you very much. If you put the answer to that question, what movie was that line from on twitter right now? Make sure you use the hashtag non-profit radio what movie is that line from great vengeance and furious anger? You will win, you’ll be our first winner right now. We take a two minute break and when we return it’s all social media stay with me and amy co-branding dick dick tooting getting ding, ding, ding ding you’re listening to the talking alternate network get anything? Cubine hi, i’m carol ward from the body mind wellness program. Listen to my show for ideas and information to help you live a healthier life in body, mind and spirit, you’ll hear from terrific the guests who are experts in the areas of health, wellness and creativity. So join me every thursday at eleven a, m eastern standard time on talking alternative dot com professionals serving community. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Lively conversation. Top trends, sound advice, that’s. Tony martignetti, yeah, that’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m travis frazier from united way of new york city, and i’m michelle walls from the us fund for unicef. Welcome back, we still need our first contest winner, great vengeance and furious anger. What movie is that from? Posted on twitter? Use the hashtag non-profit radio and with a copy of a book look donated by and ten the non-profit technology network. The book is managing technology to meet your mission welcome palo alto welcome, san francisco welcome, san jose, all in california! Welcome, california listeners right now. Very pleased to have with me for the hundredth show. Amy sample ward amy is membership director at non-profit technology network and ten, which you’ll find it in ten dot org’s and a contributor to stanford social innovation review her block is amy sample, ward dot or ge and she’s at amy rs ward on twitter she’s, co author of social by social a handbook on using social technologies for social impact social by social dot com is where you’ll find that book, and any profits from that book will be used to support projects which promote the use of new technologies for social good. Amy sample ward welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. It’s. A great pleasure to have you in the studio for show number one. Hundred any profits from the book are going to be given to support projects that used that promote the use of new technologies for social good. But i thought profit and greed drove are our economy what’s the social good? Well, when it comes to the book, it was a commission book by nesta who is an innovation thunder in the uk. So they commissioned us to write it. We don’t make any profit off of it in that way. And then the funds that come from the book just get put back into the innovation fund that nestor manages all for social good. Yes. And of course, i was being sarcastic or not. Of course, not all agreed. Not not most. Not all. Not entirely. We have our first question from you came from our first winner because she posted a question on the linked in group. Mary lynn holland has one an hour of consulting from me, even during registration or planned giving. Congratulations, mary lynn holland and her question. She has two questions for you. What’s. The biggest mistake that you see small non-profits making in social media. Well, there are lots of mistakes, but i would say the biggest mistake that kind of encompasses all those little things that trip up small organizations is trying to spread themselves too thin thinking, oh my gosh, you know, all these other organizations air on, they’ve got a profile on every platform they’ve got, you know, all these photos and videos and everything going on, and they think they have to do the same thing, but they don’t have the capacity to maintain all those profiles. So unless you actually have the staff time and the content, tio keep all those different profiles alive and actually have something going on there and can go in and interact with the community that’s there just don’t put the profile up on that platform, you know, just be very specific about what you what capacity you really have so that you don’t spread yourself too thin, and then people find your profile and it looks like a ghost town, and then you’re always apologizing for sorry we haven’t been here exactly, exactly one of the survey questions we asked in advance was, which social media channels do you wish your organization used or used better? And it’s pretty scattered across blogging and podcasting but facebook is kind of a large one, almost almost fifty six percent said facebook they wish they were doing something or more with facebook, and the largest was youtube. Two thirds of the people who serve we serve surveyed i wish they were doing mohr with youtube, but your point is you just you can’t keep up with the joneses necessarily, right? You can’t be on every single platform if you especially if you’re a small organization, but i think the survey showed, you know, that most people responding that they wish they were doing more with youtube and i think that’s because we see so many great videos but aren’t necessarily like high production value videos, and so then you get that feeling of, like, man, i could have made that video, why didn’t i think of it are right and, you know, so i think that there are a lot of those feelings to have seen other people succeed in thinking, gosh, it doesn’t look that hard. White why didn’t i do that? We have to take a break. Amy sample ward, of course, stays with me, and when we return, we’re going continue with social. Media. And we’ll have another contest. Stay with us. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Hi, i’m donna and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream. Our show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life will answer your questions on divorce, family court, co parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect, no more it’s time for action. 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As a consultant to ceos, i’ve helped produce clear, measurable financial results while expanding integrity, passion and joy share my journey as we apply the science of achievement and the art of fulfillment to create breakthroughs for people across the world. The people of creation nation listen to nora simpson’s creation nation fridays at twelve noon eastern on talking alternative dot com hey, hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com i’m leslie goldman with the us fund for unicef and i’m casey rotter with us fun for unison you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Welcome back, it’s. Sure. Number one hundred twenty martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. We have a caller on the break. We gotta call r steven perrotto. I know you. Welcome. I know you do what’s up. I was calling to brad schnoll age. Do on your hundredth show. Thankyou. All your friends that beautiful. Thank you very much. Future funds is a company that i do some work with and four. And we do great work with clients, don’t we? I think we do. I know. I think we do. You think we do too well, that’s. Good. Okay. Thank you, steve. Thanks very much for calling in, man. Thank you. Another hundred. Thank you. All right. And we had some with some nice things. Said on on other social media. I had someone who wished us wish us very well on the someone was just very well on the linked in group and ah, bunch of good, well wishes on my email list. And if you want to get on that weekly email lorts find out who the guest is going to be. You could do that on the show’s facebook page. We had a listener, tom l from california, and we’ve a bunch of listeners live from california right now, tom says. I was at the south rim of the grand canyon yesterday already to tune in on your on your broadcast. I thought it sounded fun tow listen while being in this remote spot, unfortunately, just a little too remote and no signal, so i did the next best thing and listen to a pre recorded podcast that i had downloaded for this trip and brought with me. Listen, tom ellen, california, thank you on the edge of the on the edge of the grand canyon. Amy it’s incredible where people are listening technology, it reaches everywhere, staggering, so question number two from maryland, holland, who asked fromthe linked in group and one hour of consulting from me, she asks what’s the biggest misconception non-profits have about social media well following on kind of from that previous question, you know, i think that a lot of small non-profits think, oh, this will be our magical cure all potion of technology, you know, we won’t have to do those email alerts anymore, and we won’t have to really send out your end appeal because, well, just tweet it or we’ll just posted on our facebook page, but it’s, just one channel and you need to be, you know, maintaining your engagement, your strategy across all those channels you still need to use email still need to use your whether it’s, direct mail or phone, whatever you are doing in your organization and social media, just another component on dove course face-to-face exact don’t want to ignore face-to-face meetings, right and social media’s great for face-to-face riel world offline things because people that are there khun just amplify what’s going on can post pictures in real time. Khun, you know, stream of video, khun send out tweets and so all those that aren’t there, maybe aren’t in that city couldn’t come whatever khun still follow along and it’s great for community building around your organization because so many more people feel like they knew what happened and they were a part of it, okay? And people are doing that for us right now, exactly, people a re tweeting, tweeting and retweeting and one of the survey questions we asked is whether your community engagement strategy includes social media and hundred percent did. Say yes. So everybody’s, everybody who surveyed eyes doing it. But we don’t want it to be a substitute for exactly. Of course. Of course. Okay, let’s. See, um let’s go. We have ah, contest winner maria? Yeah, maria simple. Oh, i should have said affiliates and friends and employees of non-profit rate or not eligible, but i didn’t say that maria simple winds absolutely correct. Great vengeance and furious anger is from pulp fiction, of course. And i believe that maria simple is the first person teo to answer that on twitter. But but i have to make important qualification. All results must be sifted through our social media manager, regina walton of organic social media. So preliminarily, maria simple is the winner, but that is subject to change based on heimans on findings by our social media manager, regina walton. Okay, um, we have another question this one is from twitter. Came from matt morgan and he’s at morgan m o r e m o r g a g n on twitter. Advanced question. What are the must have social media platforms? Let’s take that part first cause he asked reports what the one of them must have. Social media platforms well, i wish that he was tweeting along because i just have a question back for him and that’s, who are the people in his community and what air his goals for them if you if you have people in your community that are really into maybe you’re an organization that works with wildlife refuges and they love nature, well, they probably really like taking photos of nature, and that means, you know, the kinds of platforms that you want to prioritize your time on are ones where people are sharing photos, so maybe flicker facebook, et cetera. But if you have a community that works largely offline and very locally, then you’re going to want to pick platforms that aren’t necessarily for sharing out broadcasting tons of stuff, but or maybe facilitating those people, you know, sharing knowledge just within the group. So it really depends on what your goals are and who the people are that you’re even trying to engage you now. This is why i w social media scientist, because i think the average person would’ve said what’s, the what of the must have social media platform there were said, facebook looking and youtube but it’s not it’s, a much more sophisticated answer than that it depends what your goals are exactly exactly, and we’re trying to reach okay, and matt also asks from twitter how is the best way to measure twitter impact so back to that goals question, even though it’s specific to twitter, you know why’re you using twitter? Are you an organization that’s using it to really get a lot of information and knowledge out there? Maybe your think tank and you just want to make sure lots of people are using your research in your data? Well, then you’re going to want to maybe prioritized metrics around retweets and how many people have, you know, shared a linker clicked on a link that you’ve tweeted because that shows your knowledge is getting out there, but if you’re using it just for building connections and you really want people to engage with you, well, then the retweets air just sending more people away. You want to count those replies and people asking questions to you so you know the way you measure twitter impact isn’t universal for everyone, it really depends on why’re you even using that platform, have another contest, and this one is to win and ten sunglasses on and a copy of the book donated buy-in ten the future of non-profits innovate and thrive in the digital digital age zoho dave neff who’s in ten member okay, dave, next book can be yours along with sun glasses to wear while you’re reading it. Although they’re probably egyptian, we’re not giving prescription sunglasses, all right? Well, if you wear contacts, then you can wear the sunglasses while you’re reading eyes. The treasure hunt there’s a treasure hunt i had the founder of a worldwide social network as a guest twice it’s a very top of my network, everybody knows this network. One of the interviews is on our youtube channel, which israel tony martignetti some dude in boston took. Tony martignetti so my neck, my youtube channel, israel. Tony martignetti what is the name of the founder of the worldwide very well known social network that i had as a guest? Twice, you’ll find one of those interviews on a video on the youtube channel real tony martignetti answer on the youtube channel put a comment on the youtube channel, um and name him and you will. Win the sunglasses and the book. Okay, let’s. See who else we got? We got baldwin, new york. Welcome, atlanta, georgia that’s. Probably the net singleton, our master and assiduous tweeter. Welcome atlanta. We also have ah, north carolina. What was that town in north carolina? Sam, i missed it. Newport, newport, north carolina. Welcome. I love our live listeners. L three’s love live listeners. Wei, have another question for you from this one’s from peter heller also came to the linked in group peter heller. I’m wondering if any research has been done on how much of a capital campaign can be raised via social media. I believe social media is vital for non-profits, but the sexiness of it distracts from the eighty twenty role, which is eighty per cent of your gifts will come from twenty percent of your donors. You aren’t going to get your top gifts from via the internet, but you will get smaller gifts and lots of visibility. So basically asking, is there any research on how much of a campaign comes from social media have any insight into that? I don’t know if there’s research about the whole campaign because for a lot of the people that are doing this research and benchmarking there, the people either process anders or facilitating the online donation, and so they don’t know the rest of the story. They don’t have access to the organization’s data to know what else they were raising. They only know the data of the online portion, but there’s definitely benchmarks around that, and one that is, you know, has been done. You’re over a year is from blackbaud and the chronicle of philanthropy just is a heads up, i don’t know spoiler there, maybe i’m not supposed to say, but i would keep an eye out there because they’re going to be doing summarily good stuff with online fund-raising data very soon just to help keep those benchmarks out there, okay, but i would go to blackbaud and get there. They’re online donation research and you can see the average gifts, eyes, you know, it has been increasing and things like that, okay, i would also add for peter’s question that the the social media e-giving is probably going to be at the base of the of the fund-raising pyramid, the campaign pyramid where the base is all the smaller gift. We typically say it might take hundreds or thousands of small gif ts and typically, that’s. The gift giving that’s online is fifty twenty five, one hundred dollars. You know, in that vicinity and those air in a capital campaign of ah, even just a smaller campaign of two hundred fifty thousand dollars, or half a million dollars. You do need lots of those smaller gift, right and that’s, where social media would would probably be counted in that in a campaign. Exactly. Thank you. Let’s. See what we should do. What with that way have just three minutes. Is that we’re here? Oh, we have. Ah, scott, koegler is on the line. Oh, scotty kegs on here. Tony scott. Koegler is our regular technology contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news. And he is with us for a few minutes. Scott, how you doing? I’m doing great. How you congratulations, by the way. Thank you very, very much. You have a little social media topic for us today. What you gonna do? We’re gonna tease us with. Yeah, actually, it is a teaser because we’ll talk about this next week, but, uh, analytics. I mean, i heard part of the conversation about how do you know what you’re getting from? Your from your social media efforts and that that kind of goes to return on investment, you know, why would you actually spend time and money pursuing social media, right? How do you know what you’re getting from it? Okay. And that’s kind of been a perennial issue with just, you know, making those kind of decisions. So what do you have for us? Yeah. There’s. A lot of platforms out there. I know of three that are kind of my top of mind there’s hoot suite, which is a combination of free and paid for depending on the level of the analysis you want to do, uh, there’s, another one called market metoo sweet, which is kind of a new one. And it’s got a fairly unique approach to enable that was market me sweet market metoo assume suite is s u i t it is confectioner sweet. Okay, right. And the other one, which is maybe a cut above those two is something called radiant six. Maybe i am six. Okay. And that’s now a sales force dot com company. And they’ve got very interesting approach. They actually allow you to find the people that are talking about the things that you want on whatever platform there using whether it’s, a lichten group or yahoo group or twitter or facebook, or any of those and actually all at the same time, and then initiate conversations on the platforms that they’re using it’s really unique. And then they got all kinds of reporting stuff. Okay, um amy, do you have? Do you know any of those? You know, those sites or or? Any others that are useful for analysis of how you’re succeeding? Yeah, there’s, there’s tons of of platforms like that, you know, that range from frito all the money in the world that you want to invest in being able to track and report everything. I always recommend the organization’s start with a free version, no matter what, because until you’re tracking something you don’t know what’s worth investing in on dh you, khun get very sidetracked by all the shiny, shiny toys that are out there. I’ve used most of them, or at least tried them out. One thing that i do like about radiant six so that’s on the spend your side of what scott just shared. One thing that i do like about radiant six is that it has some tracking for the whole conversation. So you can say, you know, if you are using twitter, for example, to really grow your brand and change people’s ideas by getting your data and your knowledge out there, then knowing what percentage of the conversation on that topic you are a part of that’s. Incredible. Okay, thank you. Okay, scott. Cool. Everybody agrees. Excellent. And i know scott, you have to go. You coming down for a few minutes? Indeed, we are going to record next week, but that show that where scott and i will go into more detail on the analytics that’ll be the august third show. But he and i will be doing that next week. Scottie, thank you very much for calling in. Thanks, tony. Congratulations again and talk with you. Thank you very much. Thanks, buddy. Bye bye. Okay. Um, let’s see what we could do right before a break. Maybe another let’s. See another treasure hunt. Maybe we have two minutes before breaks. And so, uh, okay, perfect. So we’ll have another treasure hunt on the block. I have had a ceo of a popular charity rating organization on the show. This is a treasure hunt on the block. His last name is berger what’s his organization. Post your answer on the facebook page to win a copy of open community. A little book of big ideas for associations navigating the social web. So again, had the ceo of a popular charity rating organization on the show search my blog’s for his last name, which is burger and tell me what? His organization is and post the answer on the facebook page, and you’ll get the book for matty. Grant is also an antenna member. This incredible amy knows all these authors, really, i have to keep. I need better social social circles. I hang out with you more right now, we’re going to take a break. Amy sample ward, fortunately, can stay with us the whole show. Grateful for that. And and also after this break, we’ll have tony’s take, too. I’ll have another contest, and you’ll be maria semple with with about us and also jean takagi and emily chan. And again, any stays with us, so and i hope you do, too. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks. Been radio speaks. Been. Radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Hi, i’m carol ward from the body mind wellness program. Listen to my show for ideas and information to help you live a healthier life in body, mind and spirit. You hear from terrific guests who are experts in the areas of health, wellness and creativity. So join me every thursday at eleven a, m eastern standard time on talking alternative dot com professionals serving community. Money, time, happiness, success, where’s, your breakthrough. Join me, nora simpson, as i bring you real world tools for combining financial smarts with spiritual purpose. As a consultant to ceos, i’ve helped produce clear, measurable financial results while expanding integrity, passion and joy. Share my journey as we apply the science of achievement and the art of fulfillment to create breakthroughs for people across the world. The people of creation nation listen to nora simpson’s creation nation. Fridays at twelve noon eastern on talking alternative dot com geever. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com if you have big ideas and an average budget tune, tony martignetti non-profit radio we dio i’m jonah helper nari team in co founders of next-gen charity. Welcome back to the one hundred show who it’s time for tony’s take two at roughly thirty two minutes into the hour, my voice is cracked like i’m like fourteen years old. Welcome, georgie city, newjersey! Welcome live listener judges, teenagers, that’s my dad’s birthplace it was greenville hospital in the greenville section of jersey city, and my grand parents used to live on mcadoo have in jersey city. So welcome jersey city on tony steak to right now, i first want to be very careful to say thank you for everybody who has been listening to the show. There wouldn’t have been one hundred shows i would not have been doing this for two years if nobody was listening. A podcast that nobody listens to is ah diary it’s under lock and key or what good is it so very grateful? I’m very grateful for lots of listeners, lots of support followers on all our different social media channels of the show. Thank you very much and a special shout out for a podcast. Listeners there are over a thousand of them, and right now i have a contest for podcast listeners. So live listeners, you’re welcome to listen. Don’t don’t don’t shut away, but this one is for podcast listeners. They’re going to win an intent t shirt and a pair of sunglasses, but after the podcast is posted and regina walton knows exactly the moment and second that the podcast goes live. And after that time, the first person who tweets the phrase non-profit radio has over one thousand podcast listeners, we’ll win the end ten t shirt and pair of sunglasses, so podcast listeners. After you’ve heard that podcast, go to twitter, use the hashtag non-profit radio and tweet the phrase non-profit radio has over one thousand podcast listeners, and i’ll leave it to your discretion when you where you want to put a comma in the one thousand that’s up to you, my blog’s, as always, is tony martignetti dot com and that’s, where you will find information about today’s show and that’s, where we’ll be posting lots of contest winners next week. We’ll have the contest winners posted on my blogged at tony martignetti dot com, and that is tony’s take two for friday, july thirteenth, twenty eighth show of the year. Right now we have lots of contributors with us, maria simple is on the line. How are you, maria? Great. How are you doing? Very well, thank you. Marie is the prospect. Find her she’s an experienced trainer and speaker on prospect research. Her website is the prospect finder dot com her book is panning for gold. Find your best donor prospects now and on twitter she is at maria simple. Welcome, maria. Thanks, tony. And congratulations. Thank you very much. I know you and you and amy and i are going to talk about email and online strategies, so we’re going to get to that that connection very soon. But let’s bring in gene and emily to what the heck gene and emily how you doing? We’re doing great many congratulations on your hundreds. Thank you, emily. Are you there or is genius speaking? Speaking speaking for you today i’m here okay. Jean takagi is the principle of dio the non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He had it. The popular blogger at non-profit law blawg dot com and he’s at g tak gt a k on twitter emily chan is an attorney at neo-sage principal contributor to that non-profit law blogged and on twitter she is at emily. Chan, welcome again. So and you guys were going to talk about who owns your twitter account? That’s? Really interesting. But let’s see let’s, start with maria and maria. You have some advice around coordinating email and social media channels. Yeah. That’s right. Tony, really? Email marketing is no longer just about sending out email blast because it’s all very share a bill now. So the beauty of it is you can take the communications and leverage them much further. Both us, the sender, but also the person receiving it can go ahead and forward the communications on their social media platform. Okay, forwarding. So is this done with a simple links in an email? Yeah, usually it’s done with that share, that social share bar that we’re also accustomed to seeing now that also it already has a little icons embedded into it. Okay, but certainly they can take the girl and cut and pasted in as well if they prefer to do it that way. But those social share buttons really make it great to be ableto take your communication and leverage it further. I mean, what what’s your vice around coordinating email with your social network channels. Yeah, we try to do that, i’ve seen organizations actually see big upticks because they see, you know, a message go out and then a coordinated message asking what people thought of it or if there was a video embedded or photo, you know, an action that they can then say, hey, look at all the people signing that petition or whatever, but another form of engagement that i’ve seen, especially small organizations that, you know, maybe have to staff or say three staff are not paid, you know, like just a volunteer organization used tools, you know, they don’t like that very first question getting spread too thin, they know they have email addresses, they’re not going to worry about facebook, so they really want to make those emails really good. Andi, i’ve seen people use a tool called group fine that allows your email toe actually be kind of alive, so i’ll send out an e mail to everybody, and i say, you know, we’re looking for your feedback about this event, you know, what day do you want it? And then who would you like is the speaker? You can embed those questions in the email and when people respond and you open your email, you see their responses live in your ok so people can see written out answers from other people in the community, etcetera. So you can literally start a conversation in an email because everyone is opening that email and seeing it and that’s why it was called group find group, vine group find like a great plan. Great. Fine group. Fine. Okay, maria, what what else did you want to share with us? You know, i wanted to share also that there is a site called nutshell mail dot com for those small organizations that are thinking, well, how do we begin? Teo, monitor the conversations that are going on elsewhere. You can actually set up an account with nutshell mail, i believe it’s free and you can have the three e mails sent you. However often you want throughout the day. So let’s say you’re interested in monitoring your e mail your social media communications and mentioned at the beginning of the day and toward the end of the day, not shell male will actually send you an email. Recai recapping all of social media that has been going on or you actually designate you’re interested in monitoring face focus your monitoring, lengthen or twitter. You designate which ones you’re interested in getting the communications about. And maria is nutshell male free. I believe so. Yes, it is. Okay. She says yes. Maria says yes. So yes. Okay. Excellent. Excellent. Maria way. Want to leave us with one other tip before we have to move? Teo jean emily a little bit. Yeah, i think one other site that i might like. Just drop and leave with you it’s something called social quick starter dot com and it’ll give you some additional ideas about how to leverage your email communications into social media. Okay, would you be good enough? Teo? Post these on the facebook page on the linked in group. Sure. All these free resource is. Thank you. I always appreciate you doing that. Thank you. Um, on dh, you’re welcome to stay if you want, you hang on the phone. Maria, can you cure? Okay. Excellent. But let’s, uh, let’s. Go to jean and emily and there’s some recent controversy around a case that involves whether the issue is whether a person on employee or the employer owns the twitter account after the employee leaves who’s going to who’s goingto give the fax an overview of the case familiar gene, go ahead either one okay, not go there. There was a case recently and arises because many of us are mixing our work and personal lives so much and i think that’s especially true when we’re using social media. Andi so for people who are on twitter on by all of us, i think are on twitter now we put in our personal statements as well, lazar our word promotional statements and do some branding for our companies and for our selves personally. So there was a recent case, probably the most well known that was filed in july of last year involving phone dog and an employee who’s named noah kravitz. Kravitz was using a twitter account that had phone dog is part of the twitter handle phone dog noah okay, promote the company and crab it’s left the employment, kept the twitter account and changed the handle to noah kravitz, his name but by that time, he’d accumulated over seventeen thousand twitter followers um, and months later, phone dogs decided to sue because they wanted the account in the followers, you know, suing for damages, they figured out that each follower was worth two dollars and fifty cents per month for eight months, and that ended up being three hundred forty thousand dollars in that complaint timesthe seventeen thousand followers that’s interesting that any idea how they came up with two dollars and fifty cents per month for ah is the value of a twitter follower? Well, that i think if i’m following you, i’m worth much more than that i’m worth, i don’t know fifteen or twenty dollars a month surely that’s definitely the big issue, and it may be a way that each organization values its prospects on customer list, but that’s that’s sort of each organizations proprietary information. I’m not sure exactly how they came up with that and that’s definitely one of the issues. Okay, i’m going to just ask amy, just this is a little date. Well, it’s an interesting issue. Yeah, but i know and we’ll go deeper in the law. But, amy, any sense of value, any reason research on how how twitter accounts value their followers in really indulgence sense? I don’t know, i mean organizations do it in different ways, in this case, it’s. Very different than, like many non-profits that aren’t tracking the our ally of anything or anyone. So they actually have the math, you know, to to do the calculation. But i think that for most organizations, their primary use of twitter was just the community building and never asking for anything you know, fund-raising wise not doing appeals. They’re not even doing customer service for other fund related work, but in litigation, as jean points out, there has to be shevawn cause of action and also damages. If you’re angry at somebody but you weren’t injured or damaged by it, then there’s no recompense in law. Anyway, you might get an apology, but so that’s how they valued. Ok, jean little digression. Sorry. Yeah, so well, that’s the basic issue and and of course, been final by finalized yet, so they’re still going into settlement agreements, and we’re going to learn from this, but we think this is going to blow up and be more pervasive because there are a lot of issues involved where employers are just not making clear who owns the account that out that and that creates, you know, potentially triable issues i have i’m sorry, i have a survey question and emily, this will probably leading to some of your advice around this. Do you have a written policy on use of social media accounts by employees? And about fifty six percent of people said yes at about forty five percent, forty four percent said no. So let’s, sort of close to a half don’t have a written policy. Emily, i’m sure there’s advice that involves written policies, of course, absolutely. With any policy, i think it’s important to think about what you’re actually trying to address. So even if half of the survey respondents have a policy, is it actually addressing the questions that are coming up in cases like phone dog versus kravitz? You know you may have policies about what can be put a on the twitter account, like what kind of content you’re supposed to push out. But did you actually address, you know, who owns the account, who maybe account, and you have guidelines for howto relinquish that account when that the employment end. So these are all the kind of questions that organization should be thinking about when they’re creating these policies. Now that these cases, they’re coming up, okay, and we just have a minute before a break. One more piece of advice. Teo, help stave off these these issues. I think just making any step in the right direction, you know, it’s hard to do a comprehensive policy, but to just tackle one question out of time, i think you can really help the organization in the long term just to say, you know, the employer owns the account and you give it up end. Making that clear is something that i think probably a lot of organizations i haven’t done yet. I haven’t thought about it, okay, you’ll stay with us. Of course, i like i love the name of that case phone dog versus kravitz. I don’t know if he’s related to lenny kravitz or i think of mrs kravitz from bewitched. Those of you remember that show, mrs kravitz, i believe, was the neighbor. I don’t know if noah is a descendant of any of them. We’re going to take a break and when we return, maria semple stays with us and jean takagi in emily chan and amy sample ward and i hope you two. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. 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Welcome back to the one hundred show that last love, amy’s little move that last drop where someone is that’s called a drop when someone is endorsing the show. That’s a pretty significant clue to one of our current contests. I have to leave it there. Amy, i want to ask you how, and ten manages ownership of social media properties and three organizations, all about social media. You’re all doing lots of things. How does how does that organization manage this? Sure. So we definitely do have a policy in place and it’s part of our employee handbook that everyone has to sign. So we know you at least pretended to write it. Did you mean emily chan, right? That policy for you? She did not. They did not. Well, it’s probably substandard, but haven’t i? I’m happy to say it some standard until they look it over, but we that the inten organizational account and ten org on twitter is the only one that is thie official voice event ten and we have policies in place that say who can have admin access to that? You know who khun tweet from the account when what kinds of things? You tweet, but then we also have some guidelines and parameters for using your own account and that we’re totally fine if you want to have your own twitter account and not be associated with antenna and never talk about us, etcetera. That’s truly finds your personal account, but if you do want to tweet about and tens work or in support of intent or anything like that, then we want to make sure that you say that you are an ant in employee in the bio so that if if, say, someone asked a question and you respond from your personal account and not the official account, they know it really was legitimate, you know, information that they were getting back, and it wasn’t just some random person trying to say this is how to use the site or something. So we want to make sure that it’s, transparent and clear in your profile, but we don’t own that profile. We don’t own. We don’t try and measure or anything, even those personal accounts, and then when you leave, well, then we ask, obviously, that you take the reference that urine and an employee out of your bio, but that’s it, it’s still your it’s your own account. Okay, jean, how does that sound to you? Well, we love and ten. And so you know in-kind well, okay, that okay, their policies, they’re probably pretty strong. And that sounds like that. Sounds like great. Those sound like great guidelines. And maybe one cautionary note. If you don’t do something like that. And you’ve got an employee that’s tweeting on a quasi work accountant starts to endorse a political candidate in this election year. You could get into a lot of trouble for your organization. Election hearing. We talked with her. Yes. You and i and emily talked a lot about that in a previous show. Election hearing and political advocacy. Okay. We definitely like to encourage people to vote, but we do not tell them who to vote for. But so what would happen then, jean if if amy on her on her on a personal account, that does say that she’s within ten started to endorse a candidate, what would happen? Well, those those words could get attributed, teo. Antenna if it’s an antenna owned, account controlled account and then that’s just a safety organization, it endorsed the candidates themselves, which is a violation of five twenty three and potentially jeopardised the five oh, one seat to exempt status of the organizations why you gotta do take steps to make sure that that doesn’t okay? And i guess, emily, that should be a part of your your polyp written policy, yeah, absolutely a cz much of the organization and its best interests, khun document that it’s doing its part to take care of its responsibility that’ll be helpful. So in the employee handbook saying, you know, if you do put that urine and an employee like you should know that is a five, a one tree organization, we can’t make these kind of statement was we can’t expect organizations to monitor all of their employees accounts, and then if the employer does become aware of something that happened, you know, documenting the steps you took to make sure that it wasn’t attributed to the organization, like having asking the person, maybe tio put something on their account to make sure that it shows that it’s their personal account i’m or even just as the organization with the accounts, you’re in control of making sure that you’re putting the information out there like that, we do not monitor employee account, okay, amy’s doing a lot of nodding. So i just i mean, generally that’s the way in ten manages things. Yes, yeah, okay, um, let me ask you, we just have about two minutes left. Can’t noncompete and non solicitation agreements be valuable in this? Also, jean. Yes, absolutely. So if somebody doesn’t, uh, have has a personal, own email account or started sorry social media accounts like a twitter account and brings it to the organization’s main competitors when they switch firms and that’s going to be a problem if they bring all the followers over oh, run so absolutely having a non compete but use traditional non compete agreement. But make sure that they reflect that there’s social media properties as well. That may be involved, i think it’s really important? Yes. Because in this phone dog case, noah just noah kravitz left the employment, but he didn’t go to a competitors, but yeah. Interesting. If if you go over to a competitive right. Absolutely. Yeah, very good. Let’s. See, i guess we should probably say goodbye, maria. Simple. You’re still there. I know i am. Um, let me give you one shot. Is there anything? Is there any more sight? One more site. You want a name in our last minute? Since we haven’t talked to you for a few minutes. Oh, boy. Uh, gosh. There’s so many great ones out there. One mashable dot com. Okay, mashable i love just kind of keeping. Track of what mashable is talking about in all things. Social media and always come up with some interesting ideas after i read one of their articles. Okay. And that’s. A very well known block. Jamie, you follow that also. Develop mashable. Okay, maria simple. Thank you very much, maria. Simple. Of course, the prospect. Find her. You’ll find her at the prospect finder. Dot com. Thanks for being on maria. Thank you. Congrats again. Thank you very much. Gene and emily at neo non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco. The block is no non-profit law blogged dotcom. Thank you very much. Both for being on. Thank you so much, tony. Congratulations. Thanks, gene. Thank you. Thank you, emily. Thanks for helping talk to you next month. Amy let’s. See in wrap up one thing that you want, teo leave listeners with about social media that we haven’t said that’s sabelo in, like, twenty seconds zoho i would say give tools a try on your own if you want. If you think that they could be used for your organization before you try and set up the organizational account, so you give yourself a chance to figure out. How it really works, what things you like about it, etcetera, before you set up that organizational profile and start directing people there and then realize, oh, actually, this is broken or whatever, you know, work those kings out on a personal account first amy sample warders, membership director and ten non-profit technology network, which you’ll find it, and ten and t e n dot or ge and a contributor to stanford social innovation review her block is amy sample ward dot org’s amy, thanks so much for being a good yeah. Thank you for having me. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Real pleasure. Next week, we start to move to show number two hundred. Trim tab marketing. James eaton is president and creative director of tronvig group and the metaphor of trim tab as one person who can move an entire society has professional and personal meaning for him. And he’s gonna explain how something very small can really have a big impact on your marketing and had to figure out what that small thing is. Also no more crappy corporate partnerships. Another interview from the fund-raising day conference will have two people who were speakers at fund-raising day. And they want you to take a holistic approach to your corporate relationships because your charity as real value for companies and they have a lot more to offer you than just money. We’re all over social media, you know that by now you can’t open a new tab on your browser without a head on collision with tony martignetti non-profit radio, you know, we’re on linked in, you know, we’re on facebook, you know, we’re on twitter use that hashtag non-profit radio lynette singleton, thank you very much for your live tweeting today i’m on four square! You can follow me on twitter also, and those are all the ways oh, youtube, i forgot about that itunes you want to become a podcast listener non-profit radio dot net takes you to our itunes page what does it mean when a cause long out of spotlight raises one point six million dollars in just two years, an idea grows into a powerhouse helping one hundred seventy thousand people each year, and when an agency raises three point eight million dollars in government grants in six weeks, it means lap a has done its job lap lap a lap of fund-raising dot com for your campaign grants and planning needs. Our creative producer was claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio shows. Social media is by regina walton of organic social media. Regina, thanks for all your help today, and the producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. I hope you will be with me next week for the one hundred first show. Tony martignetti non-profit radio, one to two p, m eastern on talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com. I didn’t think that shooting the good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Get in. Thank you. You could. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam lebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people. Dahna you’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Buy-in oh, this is tony martignetti athlete named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio friday’s one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcast are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving. Communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications. That’s the answer. Dahna

055: Explaining Earned Income & Leading the Leaders: Motivate Your Board to Fundraise – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Gene Takagi and Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group
Andy Robinson, consultant, and Kerry Kruckel, vice president for development and communications at WNET TV

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://mpgadv.com

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Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio. We’re always talking about big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. I hope you were with me last week for got women donors from the fund-raising day conference in new york city last june, we talked about successful initiatives to expand your female donor base through targeted and appropriate cultivation, solicitation and stewardship. My guests were michelle walsh from the us fund for unicef and travis fraser from united way of new york city. Then it was linked in for prospect research. Our new regular contributor, maria simple, the prospect finder, was with me to share strategies for using linked in to find people and organizations who could be your board members, volunteers and donors. This week we are explaining earned income. Our legal contributors jean takagi and emily chan breakdown. What earned income is why it can be good. Why it can be bad. Why you need to understand it to protect your non-profit and keep it out of trouble. Then it will be leading the leader’s. Motivate your board to fundraise pre recorded at that fund-raising day conference in june consultant andy robinson and carry kruckel, vice president for development and communications at w any tv public tv in new york city reveal how to move your board to be the best fundraisers they khun b on tony’s, take two from my blog’s, say what’s on your mind. I learned a lesson about better communication from somebody who sat next to me on an airplane this past weekend, and that is tony’s. Take two at roughly thirty two minutes after the hour we’re live, tweeting today, use the hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation on twitter. We take a break, and when we return, i’ll be joined by jean takagi and emily chan to explain earned income. Stay with me. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Bilich hey, are you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com lively conversation top trends, sound advice, that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio and i’m samantha cohen from the american civil liberties union. Welcome back to the show and thank you, samantha cohen. Jean takagi is principal of ennio neo non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the popular non-profit law blawg, which you’ll find at non-profit law blogged dot com. Emily chan is an attorney at neo-sage principal contributor to the non-profit law blawg. They’re both joining me to talk about earned income. Jean emily, welcome to the show. Thank you, tony. Pleasure to have you back. Jean earned income. It can be good. It can be bad. What are we talking about? Well, when we’re talking about her dinkum, we’re talking about income that said, made by non-profits that’s not true. Donations through grants through charging fees, usually for services. Good. Jean, let me let me interrupt you for a moment. Could you talk a little louder? Jane is better. Yeah, that is better if you can keep up that. Thanks. Great. So earned income is about making income from services or goods or other assets that the non-profit may have to sell. And it’s not just asking for donations or grant on it’s. A way to diversify a non-profits revenue sources. Which is a good thing. Especially in times when other revenue sources from donations and grants maybe somewhat precarious because of the economy ah, and it helped to create a self sustaining program of the non-profit another really good thing in a way for non-profits toe leverage, goodwill and other ass. Yep. Okay, so this is income aside from your fund-raising a cz you said sale of goods or services there, there there there’s a lot of earned income out there, isn’t there? Jane? Absolutely. I believe emily sighted in in a recent block post that about seventy percent of the income reported by non-profits is actually derived from earned income sources and not fund-raising okay, so the majority of the of the income all right, and emily this khun b, that could be a downsides and non-profits too, right? Yes, there are to mean reasons why non-profits should be aware of this concept of unrelated business income because first thurs attacks that the irs imposes on income coming from unrelated business activities and second for public charities there’s a requirement that the organization be operated primarily for exempt purposes. So if there is too much unrelated business activity happening, that can actually jeopardize the status. Of the organization. Okay. Jargon jail have to getyou for unrelated business income. Unrelated to what? Let’s, break this down. Yes, on that really? The key concept here. So within earned income there could be activities that are considered related to the exam purposes for which the organization was formed. And then there can also be activities that are considered unrelated to be exact purpose of the organization. Three irs defines this three part of a trader business that’s regularly carried on that’s not substantially related to furthering the except purpose. So really, it gives the definition for unrelated business and that’s kind of how we see which activities are considered related or whether they’re considered unrelated. Okay, so i think the key phrase there is substantially related. Gene what? How does the organization decide whether it’s earned income is or is not substantially related to its a charitable mission? It’s definitely a fact specific inquiry, tony. The general idea is that related business advances the organization’s charitable mission without considering where the profits go. It’s the activities himself that contribute, importantly toe advancing the mission. So even if there was no money generated from that activity, the charity would think that running that business is a good idea because it helps again further, the mission furthers, uh, the interests of the charitable class of individuals trying trying to help no unrelated business is one where the activities really have nothing to do with advancing the mission, but they’re carried out to generate revenues that will be used later to advance the mission and it’s that’s unrelated business that could be subject to the unrelated business income tax and that can get a charity in trouble if it’s engaged in a substantial amount of of that type of unrelated business activity. Okay? And you you draw and a n’importe distinction. I think, between the activity that creates this earned income and the place to where that money goes once it comes into the organization, we’re interested in the former, right? Exactly. So for this analysis, we don’t get her where the money goes. We’re just looking at the activities himself, okay? Yeah, go ahead. Sometimes very difficult to tell. Tony, for example, does selling clothes or other retail items really further a charitable mission. And, you know, on one side, you might say, well, it looks like a department store. It looks like a boutique, but it can for their mission if, like, goodwill, the operation of the business provides education, job training and work experience for disadvantaged class of individuals so it can be very fact specific, and we’d look at all the facts and circumstances to determine whether it’s related or not. Okay, and we have just a minute before the break. So so the activity that we’re interested in is the activity that generates the revenue the income let’s call keep put consistent generates income, and you’re comparing that to the tax exempt purpose, which would be the charitable mission. And that’s, how you’re determining whether the income is related or unrelated? Why am i explaining this? Right? That’s? Exactly. Right. Okay, cool. All right, so we’ll take a break, and when we come back, emily and jean will stay with us. We’ll talk a little bit more about how to determine where, where this related or versus unrelated income fits. And what happens if it turns out to be unrelated. Which sounds ominous. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio stay with us. E-giving attempting to getting thinking. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. Get him. Good. Duitz are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Looking to meet mr or mrs right, but still haven’t found the one. Want to make your current relationship as the building as possible? Then please tune in on mondays at ten a. M for love in the morning with marnie gal ilsen as a professional matchmaker, i’ve seen it all tune in as we discuss dating, relationships and more. Start your week off, right with love in the morning with marnie gal ilsen on talking alternative dot com. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics politically expressed. I am montgomery taylor, and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Schnoll welcome back, we’re with jean takagi and emily chan explaining earned income. So, emily, maybe we could talk about a couple of other, maybe just fact situations where i guess the irs has determined or, you know, or some court has determined that that something was definitely related or unrelated income. Can you give another example, besides the one that gene had with the goodwill? Sure, another common example is with museums that generally have this charitable and educational purpose, but they also generate income through activities like a gift shop or having a cafe. So now we’re looking at the specific activities, and the irs doesn’t a kind of a broad stroke with activities it’s going to look at each activity and even within that activity kind of separate parts. So starting first with the gift shop, i’m emily, before you go further, can you can you speak a little louder? Force? Thank you better. Yeah, it is better, thank you within a museum, gift shop, museum, maybe selling items that i’m advanced charitable and educational purposes, for example, their reputations of the art that’s displayed on other items like that, but they also may be selling things like seven years to the city for which is located, which really is not going to be considered substantially related to charitable and educational purpose at the museum. In that case, the irs look att each item, maybe even and determine whether that’s related or unrelated, and so it can get quite nuanced if we done looked to the cafe. Now we’re talking about some of the activities where the irs also make exceptions. So some cafes in a museum may be considered related if they fall under the exception of being there for the convenience of the members and the patrons who come into the museum. But then, if we’re looking at a cafe that open to the public that list, they have the street entrance. Now it’s starting to look like a commercial cafe for-profit cafe, in which case we are arrest may come in and say, this is unrelated income, and now the museum has to be concerned about the two issues we raised earlier of pre-tax or possibly okay, that’s really interesting. So so within this category of earned income, some of it can be related and some of it unrelated, and then the non-profit has to. Account for those separately, like within the same cafe or the same museum store? Yes, on so this is. And another misconception that comes up is not an activity itself, such as running a cafe can actually generate both unrelated and relieving income. I’m so again, and she noted it’s just very fact specific and the na me but they’re not the museum when it reports it’s income in its annual information returned to the irs got toe actually list out every item that generates related versus unrelated business income so it would have to say, well, we we sold some t shirts and mugs of the city city souvenirs. This generated this much income that would be subject attacks. We thought this many art prints and books on art which would be related and not subject to that attack. Yes. Ok, so they do have to account separately for all these different categories of related versus unrelated. Wow. Okay, so is that so it’s fragmented? I mean, they’re the income is fragmented and that’s exactly what the irs calls that they call it the fragmentation rule. Okay. And let’s talk a little more. Jean about the consequence of of unrelated, it earned income. It’s, you and emily both mentioned the unrelated business income tax is that what gets applied to unrelated income? Exactly, and the whole idea be behind the unrelated business income tax was to address the problem of unfair competition with for-profit businesses on dh back in the fifties, when when the law was first created, there were a bunch of large non-profits like universities buying for-profit businesses and not paying taxes when running them within the non-profits can imagine that a small business it could be very upset if this big non-profit competitors came in, didn’t have to pay tax and had this huge competitive advantage over the small business owners, plus the additional advantage of not paying property tax, et cetera, the other the other advantages, aside from not paying tax on the income right, exactly, exactly right. And so you could see how they would be this unfair competition if non-profits weren’t tacked on this unrelated business income, and there is a one thousand dollar general thresholds first, one thousand dollars sort of escape, but beyond that, then it’s considered substantial enoughto require that the non-profit file a special information return or tax return. Reporting it’s, unrelated business income tax and the income tax is a tax on the normal corporate tax rate that a corporation would have to file a for-profit business would have to file, which is generally somewhere between fifteen and thirty five percent rate. Okay, and there’s an additional return to report this beyond the nine, ninety it’s not just a schedule in the nine, ninety that you that you ah, that you file correct it’s a separate return called the form nine, ninety and just like the nine, ninety, it has to be publicly disclosed. Okay, tea for taxable. Maybe. I don’t know. Okay? Or tea for tony, i think it’s the nine. Ninety tony for i prefer that. Okay, so who should be making this call mean, does this this is definitely require an attorney? If you have this earned income that you know, outside you’re fund-raising income, you’re getting money for goods and or services? Does this have to be an attorney making the call as to whether it’s related or unrelated her candid account into it? Or or who? Offgrid i think it’s a mixture of individuals that really can help make this decision. I’m in one respect there really is a business decision that has to be made by the organization and its leaders, even if the organization is generating related income. I mean there’s questions about whether there’s capacity the resource to support it and weather engaging in these activities might even lead to something like mission creep, where the organization starts to move further and further away from the reason it was organized. I’m certainly having the help of experts can be incredibly useful for an organization as kind of our discussion is highlighting there’s so many nuances to this rule, and unfortunately, the irs doesn’t give kind of a straightforward, bright line threshold to say where you’ve crossed that line and now have based on certain consequences, such as getting your tax exempt status provoked. So i certainly think there are many people who could be useful durney i’m with jean takagi principle of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. Emily chan is an attorney in that firm. So emily, you just mentioned possible revocation of your tax exempt status. What? We haven’t gone that far yet. What? What is that about? So public charities when they first formed one of the requirements under the internal revenue code is not this organisation be primarily operated for the exempt purpose? The issue with unrelated business income is now is there’s too much unrelated business activity? The irs is now saying you’re no longer being primarily operated for related purposes. Unfortunately, though the iris has not said definitively at what point can you say now? We were engaged in substantial on really business activity many people ask for, like percentages or income amounts, but unfortunately, the irs hasn’t spoken on that. Many practitioners fall on the twenty percent rule of thumb of, um, the amount of generated income coming in, but sometimes being office may reap are looking at the amount of resource is the organization is actually dedicating unrelated business activity as opposed to how much income is generating let’s stop for one moment. So on emily, i have to remind you speak a little bit louder, please. So twenty percent you’re saying some practitioners use a twenty percent. What are we taking? Twenty percent of if that’s your if that’s the test, you’re using twenty percent of gross income from unrelated businesses, okay? And and some practitioners think that is a threshold for for what, when you have to report it or or what it’s a good rule of thumb common amount that many practitioners fallen for when the organisation should be concerned now that they may be e-giving into too much unrelated business activity in which consequences could be oh, i see. Ok, so there isn’t a bright line. There isn’t a bright line as to how much is too much. Some practitioners use twenty percent. I don’t there’s some practitioners who think as long as it’s not above forty nine percent that you’re okay, yes, but certainly arrange again because the irs hasn’t said exactly at what point they believe that the line is drawn and partially because the analysis is still back specific, it may just be difficult for the irs to say definitively across the board this is the one amount where every organization must follow-up right, i can jump in turn, please, you know the irs is really looking at all. The resource is being used by the non-profit that’s directed at the unrelated business. So if it’s, using ninety percent of its resource, is not to engage in charitable activities, but to engage in the unrelated business and the unrelated business is only generating ten percent of the total gross income. Well, that’s still probably too much unrelated business activity devoting ninety percent. You know of your resources towards it on dh. That could lead to revocation of exempt status even below that twenty percent rule of thumb. Because we’re really not just looking at the income, really looking out at how the organization is using its research. So on the sort of congress sight, if it was using only five percent of its resources and it was generating eighty percent of the growth income of the non-profit that may be okay really generated so much income is just so little resources are going towards that, and then the other ninety five percent are all going towards furthering its charitable purposes directly. So it’s it’s really more than just the percentages, but anything over twenty percent, i think emily cause that is a good rule of particularly for account that he may not be looking at the activity level, but looking at the numbers and saying, hey, you better talk to an attorney when you get to that level of income from unrelated business. Okay, interesting. So i just want to recap a little where we’re talking about earned income, which is different than your fund-raising income, but so it’s a part of your gross revenue apart from fund-raising income discerned income and then earned income could be either related or unrelated. And we’re talking about now the consequences of having too much of the income unrelated. And jean, you had said the threshold for reporting is a thousand dollars. Is that right? That’s? Right. Ok, so if you have over a thousand dollars of unrelated income that’s, when you have to file the nine ninety tony form nine ninety tony form that that’s, right? And i should add, actually sort of define what growth income means without trying to get into jargon jail here. Okay. Income for this purpose is means the gross receipts, less the cost of good souls. So, for example, if we had t shirts and we sold two thousand dollars worth of t shirts and the t shirts costs us twelve hundred dollars, how then are gross? Income is only eight hundred dollars, so we wouldn’t have to file the nine. Nineteen. Okay. Okay. Ah, are there? Are there exceptions to the so what’s could be unrelated business income, gene? Yeah, they’re they’re exceptions to the whole area, unrelated business income tax and whether it would apply and the common exceptions that that we talk about are the three basic ones. When is the volunteer exception? So if the unrelated business is carried on by all volunteers, that will be an exception, and those activities will not generate income that’s subject to that unrelated business income tax. The other one emily mentioned is when activities unrelated business activities are carried on for the convenience of members or patients or students, and that might be like a hospital, gift store or bookstore in in a and the university or the example that emily brought up a cafe inside a museum that serving just the museum patrons. That’s called the convenience exception and is another exception where you don’t get charged with that unrelated business income tax. And the third exception that’s often cited is the donated good exceptions and that’s when you run an unrelated business like a thrift store. But all of the goods inside the thrift store were donated so similar to again the goodwill model. In some cases and and other thrift stores that are run by non-profits it’s a business and it’s unrelated but it’s all donated goods so they don’t have to pay the unrelated business income tax there’s one more modification we call separate from these three basic exceptions that everybody should know about and that’s the passive income modifications. So if you’re generating a lot of income from interest and dividends and red ilsen royalties but it’s passive, you’re not doing any activities, teo, get that that income it was just based on investments that will not be subject to the unrelated business income kapin but it gets so complicated that they’re exceptions on exceptions and exceptions, those exceptions? Yeah, no kidding, especially. I’m sure about the passive income when you start getting two rents and especially ranson and there’s prints on commercial property. Okay, let’s, not go that far. But i am interested in the volunteers that first exception volunteers doing all the work. So? So if you had any employees like in a thrift shop supervising volunteers, then then you wouldn’t qualify for that exception. Is that right, jean? It would be we would look at it from a substantiality points. So it’s substantially, all of the workers were volunteers. Then we’ll get that exception. You may still have a back person sort of supervising all the volunteers, and that could still work out. Ok, ok. And emily, the donated goods that does that exception have to be one hundred percent? Or is that also? Ah, substantiality test there for that exception, we’re looking again at it reality. So with many thrift shops, we see this happening. But certainly, if there’s a combination of exceptions to the unrelated business income roll and then there’s one or i think school that are considered unrelated. Then again, the fragmentation role, as we talked about earlier is going to be triggered on the organization is going to need thio mark each category. Make sure it accounts for that. Okay? Fragmentation, substantiality unrelated business income in the nine ninety tony form jean is there anything we want to wrap up with? We have just a minute left. Anything we haven’t said about earned income that you think small and midsize non-profits should know well, apart from the whole related and unrelated part, that big driving force behind designing to engage and earned income ventures is deciding whether you really got the capacity to do it, and it makes sense it’s compatible with your mission. You’ve got the right assets that are worth selling probably want to pick the low hanging fruit first do stuff that you’re already good at because you don’t want to surprise your staff with managing a totally unknown entity and unknown venture on distracting them from from doing the mission and want to get involved too. As he plan about that, you need to know the laws and risks involved. Whether you’re selling goods, maybe sales tax are involved, you may have new employment issues and intellectual property issues, social media issues, licenses, permits, insurance and all of those things. So getting some experts to help you making sure you have the capacity to do it ahead of time. Those those are my best tips for you jean takagi and emily chan gene is a principle of neo the non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the non-profit non-profit law blogged at non-profit law blogged dot com emily chan is an attorney at neo-sage principal contributor to that blogged emily gene, thank you very much for being on, we look forward to hearing talking to you again next month. We look forward to it as well, tony. Thank you, real pleasure. Thank you. We take a break, and after the break, tony’s take two and then leading the leader’s motivate your board to fundraise, so stay with me. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics politically expressed. I am montgomery taylor, and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office needs better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills. Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. Website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications, that’s the answer. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. I’m leslie goldman with the us fund for unicef, and i’m casey rodder with us fun for unison. You’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. My block this week is, say, what’s on your mind and that’s the topic of tony’s take two on an airplane just this past weekend from chicago to new york. I was with a girl who was just very forward about saying things that that a lot of us would filter. So there was there was she’s, twenty four years old, elisa, and it was clearly, you know, some disorder that just made her say what was on her mind just as i entered the just entering the row to sit down, she asked me what’s your name, how old are you? Are you married? So, you know, that’s got me thinking, you know, she was very charming and sweet and at the same time, you know, unashamed, um and it just got me thinking, you know, they’re there we censor ourselves a lot, and we suppress things that maybe sometimes appropriately suppressed i mean, we can’t all be saying all the things we’re thinking with we’d all be without jobs without friends, but some things i think way sensor maybe should be said and and ah, not avoided just because they might be very sweet or, you know, unmanly. If you’re a guy or maybe because they might be, um, you know, a sign of weakness, so i just raised my consciousness about censoring myself and saying more things that i’m thinking and letting people be more aware of what my thoughts are in the right circumstances. And so i thought that might be a benefit to you because so much of our work is relationships in our inn. Non-profits so that’s say what’s on your mind, it’s on my block, which is that m p g a d v dot com and that is tony’s take two for friday, august nineteenth. We’re now going to move to leading the leader’s motivate your board to fundraise. This was pre recorded at fund-raising day in new york city this past june, and here is that interview. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of fund-raising day two thousand eleven were in new york city times square at the marriott marquis, and i’m joined now by andy robinson and carry kruckel andy is principal of andy robinson consulting. Carrie kruckel is vice president for development and communications. Wnt channel thirteen here in new york city. Welcome both of you. Thank you. It’s pleasure beings for having us. Our pleasure. Your seminar topic is leading the leaders how to motivate your board to cultivate major gift. I’ll tell you, we’ve done about half a dozen interviews today, and the board has probably come up in four or so of those of those six so far, but now critical the board’s role in fund-raising and how do you want to start the start? The topic? What? What? What is their responsibility? Well, where i would start this topic is i’d say we have to define fund-raising so it’s not just asking for money. It is the whole cycle of behavior. It’s identifying prospects, it’s cultivating it’s asking it’s, thanking it’s, recognizing its involving and so all that stuff. And if we define fund-raising is asking for money. There are a certain number of people, including a certain number of board members who will never get there. Okay. On the other hand, if we define fund-raising as this larger piece of work that we all have to do, then i would argue pretty strenuously they that there’s a place for everybody in that cycle, even the board members who hate to ask for money. There’s just the old fund-raising or something they can do? Absolutely there friendraising there. Friendraising yeah, we call it friendraising fund-raising atar side, which is the same thing. And it’s absolutely critical because actually, my feeling is that you don’t want every boardmember asking for money. Let’s, let’s try to go through a little life cycle of a boardmember how do we make sure we recruit board members who want to participate in this in his willingly? So, andy out recognizing that there may always be some that will will object strenuously and never maybe we’ll get to the difficult cases, maybe, but in the light in the opening lifecycle, how do we how do we recruit correctly? Andy? Well, the first thing is transparency mean, let people know when they’re joining your board that this is one of the expectations and i’m a believer and job descriptions, i think you specify what expected. Boardmember and i think the job description has to be reciprocal, meaning we’re gonna expect you to raise money on one side on the other side, we’re going to train you how to do it, we’re going to support you or give you some options and how you participate. Oh, so there actually is organization responsibility. It’s reciprocal? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, where a lot of lorts fail and be interested to hear your take on this carry. A lot of boards fail is they bring people on and they say, go raise money and they kick him in the butt and they supposed about the door do it there’s not training, but on the morning there’s not support. I mean, there’s, this sort of fantasy that they’re all they all come in as skilled and willing fundraisers. And that is rare. Carrie, how about you? For the recruiting side on the recruiting side were very strategic. And w n e t we have a committee that’s, just a people. So of my board of forty, only eight are formally asked by the chairman to be active solicitors for deb unity. And they partner with me. I trained them on. We have a whole business plan that they stick, teo, that we establish the beginning of the year. Now, just as important to that group a zach repairs to the organization is all trustees do. We asked him to give when they joined the board, we have a give and get yes expectation it’s very clear it’s not give or get you have to give not all of our trustees khun give it the same level, but they all have the ability to additionally get one of the criteria for recruiting a boardmember sir, is what is the network that they’re in what’s their orbit in sphere of influence and that’s we played too. We played to that strength rather than to a place that they may not be familiar. So that’s really key. So everybody comes in with a certain capacity said, but only a handful of people work with me on act, actually soliciting gifts, large gifts, the rest friendraising yeah, just once just one fifth of your board, but the andes to the point that andy made there is a role for everybody, so rule for only one fifth of your board is actively soliciting, right? But i would say another two to three fifths of our board are actively friendraising calling me all the time with great leads, contacts, ideas, and then the development committee is a very tight, working operation that, you know, we activate when we’re ready yeah, god, those eight people self selected or you hand picking the ones you want to turn into solicitor’s i’m in the process of handpicking because i just joined the organisation fifteen months ago, so i inherited a wonderful development committee, but some on that committee still are not comfortable soliciting. They’re more comfortable, say, leading a major gala that raises three million for the organization so that’s that’s significant in a different way, but know, as i handpick in this new new year, we have two new co chairs and they they go about fund-raising from a different very different points of view. One is a seven figure donor and annual basis, and one is a six figure donor, and so we tackle it different ways. One is very entrepreneurial and, you know, a tremendous seller, great talker, the other one is very focused wants to close five gifts at a million or more. So you create this this dynamic of what’s a business plan for each of them that kind of gets the whole committee where they want, and that also suggests the support that the organization has to provide in terms of a business plan, you’re talking about a business. Plan for each of them that’s i’m sure developed in collaboration with them, but your staffing that plan on dh you’re proposing the plan to them, right? Staffing that committee is probably fifty to sixty percent of my work. It’s a big part of my job and you say an interesting word, it’s, a business fund-raising is totally a business, and until trustees see how that business is an operation, they don’t really trust the process. I kind of think they might be asked out there on a whim, asking for money, but there are three major categories of running a very solid development shop, whether your staff of three or staff of seventy like we are, but you have to have those principles in place and regularly talk about them so that the trustees feel like there was a very strong foundation that’s pushing this for them and supporting them and support them now. And he talked earlier about proper training of a new boardmember what? What is training look like wnt for a new boardmember around fund-raising around fund-raising? Yeah, um, it’s pretty informal. I mean, we have formal orientation for all of our board members when they join and then every year all the board members get a mini kind of refresher, but when it comes to fund-raising, we sit down and we establish our goals and objectives together, i usually come in with a set of recommendations that i review with the chair and the co chair, but i really trained them as they get ready and go out. I equip them with basically the case for support, so anytime they’re out socially or if they’re setting that i’ve set them up for they know the elevator pitch, but until they’re actually going out on a call, i don’t train them until they’re going on a call. So that’s basically a really sell that briefing, and then you know, half an hour on the phone or sit down where we kind of go through that solicitation. Every solicitation is different, all right? But i don’t formally trained them. I don’t bring in outside consultants to train them. I’ve been doing this for twenty two years. Why generally, you know i might this year will be my first let’s see will be my second year kicking off the committee for the fall can i probably will have three new committee members, so i’ll probably take forty five minutes to kind of go through the rules of the game and how they’re set up tio have a great experience and a win win for the organisation, right? And then i’ll do one on one training and what kind of feedback do you like to see from a boardmember after they’ve been in the kind of meeting that carries talking about preparing them for afterwards, how do they feed back what they’ve learned in that meeting to the organization? Yeah, it’s a good question. First of all, the classic way we do this, i don’t know if this is true it w n e t the classic way we do this, we go out hairs, it’s a boardmember with a staff member and sometimes boardmember zehr skilled enough to go out alone and do asks and that’s fabulous, but i think that’s the exception rather than the rule. So usually what this looks like is thie carries of the world are sitting down with the boardmember after the meeting’s over, and sometimes you’re doing this in the car, you know, when you’re sitting in somebody’s driveway and what did? We learn how excited is this person? Are there other next steps that we need to take who’s goingto leave who’s going to take that next step? Who’s going to lead on that? How do we follow up with that person? It’s not a bad idea to produce some sort of scratchy where you actually have a standard set of questions you’re asking each other to debrief the meeting. So you actually have something you can then put in the database and use that to manage the relationship? What do you like to see andy in terms of the other relationship? Sorry, the other board dishpan ce abilities, aside from soliciting let’s say we have boardmember is that our? We’ve agreed, mutually, either i don’t solicit or you’re not comfortable listening, and we understand it. What are the other roles? Well, this could be an entire phone call baizman entire interview unto itself, but just off the top of my head, one is identifying prospects, even if they’re not willing to approach those people individually. Another one is creating opportunities to educate people, so if you’re at a radio station, you could bring him in and give mature if you’re a land trust you could take him out on a hike. If you’re working with children, you could bring them in to see the kids doing what they’re doing. It’s a cultivation piece on the back end? I’m a great believer in boardmember is picking up the phone and thanking donors, even people they don’t know and saying, hi, my name is andy robinson, i’m a volunteer boardmember with name of organization, i am not calling this evening to ask you for money, pause, you know, they collapsed on the other end of the phone, right? I’m just calling to say thank you, and these phone calls are revelatory because a lot of board members expect they’re going to get grief and people. Wow, i love your organization is so great it’s a privilege to give and it’s a really good way to ease people into fund-raising without the ask part that’s just half a dozen things they could do what i liked about that that last ideas having boardmember calls that ghetto learned the exuberance that’s out there, even if they’re calling fifty dollar donors, you could have boardmember calling fifty or hundred dollar don’t love that, yeah, i would love that. And then they learned that. There’s, this, this is base of support. It doesn’t only exist among the six and seven figure donors, and the variation on this and i’ve done this several times is tohave. Donors come to a board meeting and do a little donorsearch. Because a lot of board members think donors air from mars don’t know when they’re different species. And actually, they’re just like everybody else. Except they love your organization more than most people know. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping hunters. People be better business people. Buy-in this is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. 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And i’m travis frazier from united way of new york city, and i’m michelle walls from the us fund for unicef. No. Durney carrie, how are how are you using boardmember sze who the ones that are not soliciting the other, the other four fifth what are some ways that they are directly involved in fund-raising they are every board member’s assigned to a committee wnt so we have seven committees, so they’re all engaged in some aspect of the mission of the non-profit my job, as i see it is the chief fundraiser is, too connect the fund-raising relevance to other parts of the opposition they may be working on, so if they’re working on programing, or if they’re working on investments or finance is what is the value of that work to the role we do and fund-raising so making the connections is really in part because a cz you pointed out they all have thinking about fund-raising they may not all be actively engaged, so the challenge is is how do you how are they experiencing the kind of the mission in a way that they’re feeling connected that keeps them kind of, in a sense, cultivated as prospects themselves and that’s a really big challenge? Because if you’re on the audit committee, that is not really a very inspiring everybody wanted wnt everybody want to be on the education committee because that’s where the programs that work with kids, mostly and that’s what they want to do because that’s exciting, but there are other fiduciary responsibilities, so it’s a challenge? So what we do is the ceo, the chairman, and i actually spent a lot of one on one time with our trustees, we take them out to lunch, we try to meet every trustee twice a year, just one on one intimately because board meetings, you really can’t connect on an intimate level. You really getting business done that’s a really valuable idea, i think connecting the leadership with the ceo with the with the boardmember include maintaining that relationship, you created friendship and trust there, but then we also i’m a big believer in events as a way to keep the trustees kind of socially connected. They don’t have to come to all the events, but they come to one or two a year in the months that you’re not doing boardmember ings w n e t we do a lot of screenings for new shows that we’re airing and that’s when we have trustees president, we give him a role, we ask himto welcome the guests, we ask him to go meet three or four people, so they always have a role in friendraising on the external side when they’re not doing the work of the board. I’m with carrie kruckel, vice president for development and communications, wnt thirteen and i see, um and anne robinson principle of anne robinson consulting their topic at fund-raising day two thousand eleven is leading the leaders how to motivate your board to cultivate major gifts, and this is tony martignetti non-profit coverage of fund-raising day two thousand eleven in new york city. Andy, what do you like to see in terms of the relations, the working relationship that carry started tow talk about between the ceo and the board around? Fund-raising well, i think the first thing is that there are ceos, executive directors who embraced fund-raising get it who are excited about it, and there are those who don’t and i have been development staff, it organizations where we had one and where we’ve had the other and this was was work is a whole lot easier if the ceo gets it and embraces it and understands it. So i’m going to start with the assumption you have one of those if you do the answer, the question, i think, is to have shared expectations that air clear about who’s going to do what and to find ways to engage people at the board level who will lead on this and the way i think about this and someone taught me this term is to have a successful fund-raising board, you need someone who is the spark plugs on the board when it comes to fund-raising because usually the way this works is staff are saying to the board, you need to raise money, you need raise money, we need help, and this is basically going to your supervisors and saying to them, you’re not doing your job well, which is tricky, she’s ill should that sparkplug be the chair of the development committee? Well, that works for me, but i’m less about the title, and i’m more about the personality, the attitude i mean, if you don’t like sparkplug, we can work with the word coach, we can work with the word cheerleader. I like the word enforcer, okay, but one spark plug, good to spark plugs. Better threespot plugs you have a really good fund-raising board, and if you can invest this person with a title like chair of the development committee that’s great, but i have seen it work really well when the chair of the development committee was more about the details and logistics, but they weren’t the one who did training and inspiring and enforcing. So i’m good either way, but somebody at a board level has to has to be that person, and the role of the ceo is to make sure you have that person to support them and doing that, make sure that they can do their job at a peer to peer level on the board. Okay, carry it sounded like you had something to say around around that relation that ceo board relationship, i would add that your board chair and your president, ceo and fundraiser have to compliment each other, so if you know what you have going into the mix and you don’t have the right balance of strengths, then you need to recruit very actively. Having a strong ceo who likes to solicit as well as the chairman can often be very problematic if they’re both looking for, you know, the chance to close on a gift and you have a donor who’s got two very aggressive people at the table that’s pretty tough, so i, like i’ve always looked to find a nice balance if the current ceo i work for is somebody who’s ah, wonderful articulator, but not necessarily was comfortable with making the ask or the clothes i’m looking for a chairman or a trustee to support him. Who has that complement the personality i generally find they’re just going backto. One point is, is that it’s really the rule the fundraiser to fill that gap? Knowing what your strength or as a professional fundraiser and playing those up, i probably can wear twenty different hats a w entity at any given time to support the trustee or their ceo or the chairman in an ask or a cultivation, because i’d have so much experience and see where the gap is in terms of how they’re going to relate to a potential donor. And i think that’s a number something non-profits can’t overlook is hiring the right fundraiser who has that kind of experience and working in a lot of different settings. On gonna frame this slightly differently. And i think this is complimentary. Really? Good development directors are good at getting other people to ask for money. Yeah, and, you know, doing it themselves? Absolutely. But the good ones are empowers. And trainers and supporters and that’s another way of what you just said. It’s a good point. Can i raise a second point, please? We’re talking, quote unquote. Major gifts and carry rolled out the six figure gift in the seven figure gift. And there are plenty people listening to this who will find those numbers to be frightening. Yeah, a thousand dollars is some organizations of thousand buckle is a major gift. The principles are the same. It’s. Not about the amount of money. It’s people who we consider major donor prospects, they get treated differently. They get more attention, we get more face time with, and we’re trying to find a way to engage their interests in a personal way. And that is really irrelevant about the amount of money we’re talking about. Okay. Excellent point. Thank you. And i agree. It’s. Very good. Carrie. What do you like to see around the the organization’s support of board? Members who are who are actively engaged in fund-raising what what kind of role is the organization playing toe to support those boards? Boardmember well, what i love to see that i don’t see much is an entire organization that understands the rule of the board and threw their department say their area of expertise, whether it’s, a on the mission delivery side or the education cider, the outreach side is that the leaders of those departments are justice. Capel is a fundraiser and communicating the progress of the mission of the non-profit to that board tends to fall into the lap of the fundraiser of the chief fund-raising almost every time you’re managing all aspects of the board, so but that’s, what i like to see, even an organization that doesn’t have it is a readiness and an understanding that we all are cultivating our board on the ceo or i’m the vice president, this department, i have a role in that, so i do spend time with my colleagues training, preparing them, helping them understand their role each year in terms of how they would interface with their committees that they’re managing, but i think that’s a really key part because it can’t just fall in the hands of the chief fundraiser at any size organization because it’s, very time consuming fund-raising really has to be out there also asking for gifts of other donors, not just working with the trustee’s. It was kind of building that pipeline, and so if you’re internally managing all components of the board, it’s very challenging, so i look for that but it’s really hard for non-profits to achieve that, you know, andy would have about thirty seconds left. What do you like to see you? So you have to be a little brief in terms of the organization supporting its member, its board members well, love, um, show appreciation, even if they don’t do absolutely everything you want them to do, reinforce anything that’s a positive behavior in this direction because these people are volunteers, they’re doing this on their own time with their own love, and we need to show appreciation even if they don’t do it perfectly if they do it pretty good. That’s a step forward, so i would honor that. Andy robinson is principal of andy robinson consulting carry kruckel is vice president for development and communications. W n e t thirteen there seminar topic is leading the leaders how to motivate your board to cultivate major gifts and this is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of fund-raising day two thousand eleven in new york city in times square. Carrie andy, thank you very much for being guests. It was a real pleasure. Thank you, thank you for having us. That was my pre recorded interview from this past june the fund-raising day new york conference next week. Google plus for your non-profit our tech contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news, scott koegler is with me to size up the newest big splash in social networking and also break down the silos, integrating communications, pr and fund-raising for better results from the fund-raising day conference in june, my guest will be meghan galbraith, managing director at changing our world for this week. I want to thank jean takagi and emily chan of the non-profit exempt organizations law firm and andy robinson and carry kruckel as well as the organizer’s of fund-raising day two thousand eleven for their hospitality from week to week, you can keep up with what’s coming up. Sign up for our insider. Email alerts on the facebook page. While you’re there like us and become a fan of the show, you know where facebook is. Just go to tony martignetti non-profit radio. When you’re in there, you can listen live or you can listen. Archive. The archive is at itunes. Subscribe and listen anytime on your computer, smartphone or tablet that’s at non-profit radio dot net for our itunes on twitter you can follow me, just use my name and the show’s hashtag is non-profit radio use that hashtag use it with impunity, use it unabashedly non-profit radio, the creative producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is claire meyerhoff, our line producer and the owner of talking alternative broadcasting is sam liebowitz. Our social media is by the expert regina walton of organic social media. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio. I hope you’ll be with me next friday one to two p m eastern here on talking alternative broadcasting always found at talking alternative dot com. I think that’s a good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternate network duitz to get you thinking. E-giving cubine hey, looking to meet mr or mrs, right, but still haven’t found the one. Want to make your current relationship as filling as possible? Then please tune in on mondays at ten am for love in the morning with marnie allison as a professional matchmaker, i’ve seen it all. Tune in as we discuss dating, relationships and more. Start your week off, right with love in the morning with marnie gal ilsen on talking alternative dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology no reality, in fact, its ideology over in tow. No more it’s time for action. Join me, larry. Shock a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for isaac tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what’s important to you society, politics, business and family. It’s provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to go what’s really going on? What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me. Very sharp. Your neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s ivory tower radio dot com for the average, our is a great place to visit both entertainment and education listening. Tuesday nights nine to eleven it will make you smarter. Do you want to enhance your company’s web presence with an eye catching and unique website design? Would you like to incorporate professional video marketing mobile marketing into your organization’s marketing campaign? 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052: So You Wanna Start a Nonprofit & A Conversation with Darian Rodriguez Heyman – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Gene Takagi and Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group
Darian Rodriguez Heyman, former executive director of the Craigslist Foundation

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://mpgadv.com

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Welcome to the show, this is tony martignetti non-profit radio i’m your aptly named host. We’re always talking here about big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent reminder that this is our one year anniversary month. It was last july that we started the show. This is show number fifty two one per week, minus couple holidays, but this is our fifty second show. I hope you were with me for the fifty first show last week had the ceo as fund-raising mvp mindy dietz and karen pearl, both non-profit chief executives revealed their insights on how to motivate, engage and position your ceo to be a fund-raising m v p then it was the fine art of conversion. My guest was scott barnett, director of web communications for fairfield university, and he urged you not to be afraid of analytics because tools like google analytics can help you prevent. Sorry, help you convert website visitors into online donors and help you engage younger prospects who become donors. Last week’s interviews were from our media sponsorship of the fund-raising day conference in new york city in june. This week, we’re alive, i’m having a conversation with darian rodriguez. Heman first, we’ll talk about his book non-profit management one oh one and the nationwide social media for non-profits conferences that he hosts then. So you want to start a non-profit we welcome our new legal contributors, jean takagi and emily chan of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco, and they’ll explain the ups and downs of starting a non-profit what are the alternatives to creating a non-profit how do you get five? Oh, one c three status and what you’re getting yourself into if you go ahead and create a non-profit between the two shows between the two segments, it’ll be tony’s take two again, this is our one year anniversary got new regular contributors to with him starting today and in august, we’ll have ah, additional contributor i’ll tell you about the first show is up for a new podcast, siri’s, that i’m hosting for the chronicle of philanthropy. It’s called fund-raising fundamentals. I’ll be up on the chronicle website every month, and i’ll say a little more about that on tony’s take two there. I’ll be interviewing experts each month to help you with your fund-raising and finally on tony’s, take two, it’ll be. You know, i’m doing stand up comedy now and have been for several months. So i’ll be weaving the comedy and this show and the chronicle of philanthropy monthly podcast altogether. I can’t help it. They all blend together and influence each other more on all of that on tony’s, take two. Right now, we take a break, and then i’ll be with with back with darian rodriguez, kayman so stay with me. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police crawl are said to want to nine, six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Xero hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio, i guess now is darien rodriguez haman he’s calling from san francisco. Darian was executive director of the craigslist foundation from two thousand four to two thousand eight. He helped conceive the non-profit boot camps that the foundation sponsored he’s, the editor of non-profit management one o one, which is published by joe sea bass he’s, also a consultant and co founder of the social media for non-profits conferences throughout the country. And i’m very glad that darrin’s work brings him to the show today. Welcome, darien. Thanks, it’s. A pleasure non-profit management one. Oh one. What does the book add to the many books that are out there for non-profit leaders? Well, i mean, i think the when i looked out there what i start with, all the books that were in the marketplace for kind of fell into one of four categories. And so, you know, you had books that were basically textbooks. They were written by and for active combat. Yes. That book at that was focused on latto. Start in on social enterprise. There’s. Also about a career. Guys, you know how to get into sectors from there. But what didn’t kill him, you know, is that there’s no fish depict some fund-raising management, but what didn’t most back-up when that really hyre spectrum but did so from a very practical kind of practice will put into work. Daria, you don’t have to talk to you for a minute or you want a headset. Funny chance i’m not going out here, big guy. So, yeah, we’ll not only echo, but we don’t have a great we’re sort of getting you in bursts i hear about. Yeah, well, i don’t know if we can help all that. Yeah, why don’t you hang up and call right back? And i’ll do a little tap dance. In the meantime, please. Okay, so darren’s book is non-profit management one o one and it is actually he’s, actually the editor of the book. Because it is thirty three essays written by some pretty popular people in their subject areas. And interestingly, it covers areas that he just touched on. But it goes much further because it gives details of how to it’s not theoretical. Darian. You back with us? Yes. This sounds better. Yeah, thank you. I was just telling the audience there. There. Are thirty three essays in the book, but go ahead, why don’t you finish explaining what it contributes? Why why you felt this was important to write, no problem, and i’m and i’m not sure what you were before, but there’s the echo again anyway. So the point is that yeah, i hear you find and if the echo is bothering you, my suggestion is just take the phone away from your ear while you’re talking, and then when you’re done talking, put the phone back because you won’t hear my insightful questions, of course, certainly. Okay, so what i was going to stay is the book is really non-profit boot camp as a book, when i was executive director, craigslist foundation, i started a program that was very successful about non-profit boot camp, and i think the reason it was so successful is that it really covered the whole spectrum of all the different issues you need to know about in order to run an effective non-profit and it did so with a very practical focus, you know, wasn’t just enough to inspire people it’s about inspiring them action? What you going to do differently tomorrow? That’s going to make you more effective and the essays in the book yeah, the book have great detail there, you know, there’s textbooks that are buying for a day there’s career, guide’s, there’s, howto started non-profit or social enterprise, and then they’re sort of issue specific books on board governance or volunteermatch judgment or individual donor efforts or online fund-raising etcetera. And what didn’t just was something that was both comprehensive and practical, something i respect and that isn’t just kind of theoretical and conceptual, but is actually in geared for implementation, you know, it’s, a field guide for people that are professional change makers on brovey yeah, and i think a field guide or manual really is a very good way to describe because i noticed that all the essays have very practical, implementable steps and you have at the end of every essay there do’s and don’ts and there’s terrific resource section at the end of each chapter, which is the each chapter is an essay, so i i see the difference there as well. So they’re just a couple that i want to focus on, and we have just about a minute and a half before our first break. One of them is your say on non-profit career’s. Taking charge of your non-profit career happens to be chapter four in the book. Um, it points out something very interesting being comment on this. The non-profit sector is so diverse, which is a terrific attribute for it. But that makes career management complex. Darian yeah. So just can you comment on the double edged sword there of the non-profit community, it being wonderfully diverse, but no definitive career path since it is so diverse? Yeah. I mean, i think that there’s, you know, diversity in two areas because there’s lots of different causes represented within the sector. There’s also different lots, lots of organizations we’ve got over a mil and a half non-profits registered in this country alone. And so, you know, yes, that is both a good thing in a bad thing, you know, it does offer tremendous diversity, it offers lots of opportunity and you know anything you can think of his representatives enough offgrid in mental job, but at the same time, you have to be using a array of options other professionally. So i think that bill, the most important thing, kind of key to success at this fight i’m sorry dahna is really about, you know, a combination of two things. Do what you love, what’s your bet. And so really the question is, what are the what’s? The answer, those two questions, and that is and you know that russian life and that’s what we really should spend our time and energy thinking about not only on a nice body basis, but i’m an ongoing basis and the clearest that we have professionals get of. What are the causes that i most care about that make packed what are what kind of organizational environment and culture and for what kind of role want to? I want to be in a wreck, prevent upleaf or focused on development and fundrasing or, you know something on the market fighter program to look in the rear of the ant, get all of those questions, the more you’re able tto sort of, you know, put your desires out, you know, to the folks that you meet and the books that you served. My guest is darien rodriguez haman, and we’re talking about his the book that he edited non-profit management one oh one, we’re gonna take a break now, please stay with us e-giving didn’t think the shooting getting ding, ding, ding, ding cubine you’re listening to the talking alternate network e-giving no. Dahna good oppcoll are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s, create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight. Three backs to one to seven to one eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people. Oppcoll are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics. Politically expressed buy-in, montgomery, taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com looking to meet mr and mrs wright, but still haven’t found the one. Want to make your car relationship as fulfilling as possible? Then please join us, starting monday, may second at ten am for love in the morning with morning alison as a professional matchmaker, i’ve seen it all. Please tune in and call as we discuss dating relationship and more. Start your week off with love in the morning with marnie alison on talking alternative dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Welcome back, come with darian rodriguez kayman we’re talking about his book non-profit management one oh one and we’re focusing on one of the thirty three essays in the book titled taking charge of your non-profit career out darian the the end of that chapter has networking, do’s and don’ts, but one of the one of the best networking tips i thought came from a mihdhar, the founder of idealist who wrote your forward and he said that he listed seven or ten things that he had learned in the past fifteen years in his forward, and one of them was, too treat people the way you’d like to be treated. I mean, isn’t that great networking advice? Yeah, i mean, i think that that’s a big part of now bombing has built up, you know, not only cecil career, but the organization would idealware bigot about a million people a month going to that website tto learn about all things not-for-profits idealist dot order, but, you know, for me i’ve seen this across several careers and different sectors is did extent a zoho helpful person that is genuinely concerned with the efforts advancing the success of the o z. From the contact it comes back, you know, a million nationally, so for me and, you know, basically any time on meeting with anybody at some point in the conversation, if even if i don’t say that word, i essentially asked the question, how can i help bond? You know, whether that’s just connecting them to re sources or yourself getting infections, being among them, you know, it’s, like books, conferences or what have you, you know, i think that the important thing to remember is that each and every one of the you know, of the non-profit country has the same owner, which is the public it’s, not the border, the executive director bye definite means to be a non-profit is that we’re publicly and our boardmember zehr just ensuring a public interest that’s why they’re trustees. So, you know, we are genuinely all in this together and it’s really crucial that we support each other’s work further that every one of us on i just think that some of the best networking advice that that you can you can find, yeah, i should actually mention that tommy denoting the social media for non-profits he’s going kicking and often it dork yeah, and we’re going to talk shortly. We’re going talk shortly about that about that series of conferences throughout the country and army has been a guest on this show that s a also makes the point of talking about a sustainable career where you’re, you know, you’re with the right organization are always learning and way always hear about sustainability for non-profits but i never thought of a sustainable career. Good? Yeah, i mean, i think so, too things. Well, first of all, i do want to just kind of point out that even though it’s the most romantic cities in court but these are not really tested their chapters because what you’ll see is to read the book there’s, a common chapter format s so i created a structure so that each chapter would yet have an introduction and a conclusion. But most importantly have, you know, the main section focused on critical skills confidences as well as that sidebar, do’s and don’ts that kind of pull out this salient points than us back that you mentioned, and then there’s also a resource review read chapter so it’s not because they’re just sort of, you know wandering as all in different formats on bitten by different experts, they are of the chapters are all contributed by different experts there’s fifty experts in thirty five different after inspections. But anyway, i wanted to make that because i think it’s important for the readability of the use of looking that died the back to your point about professional sustainability, what i would say is that, you know, i think two things because i also do a lot of environmental where you environment murcott duitz and i think first off sustainability has been even the words that we want to think about much maybe dr, right? Like, how many people would be a sustainable relationship, meaning that it can just keep going it’s not enough to just be able to keep the light, be enjoying what you’re doing, and that ultimately is the key to the ability of the key to being able to continue on. And so i think that as him into earlier such a diverse sector there’s so many opportunities that, you know, challenge happy and so you’re not break the work you’re doing, whether it’s that you’re not passionate about the cause or that you don’t like the people you work with role that you’re in, then you really owe it to the cause into the community to get fashion and whether that trying to wreck himself some things with, you know, the organization you’re working with or, you know, identifying and new places to go work and on put your skills to bear at a organization, what do you know if you can really do your best work? Yeah, the the authors make the point of always reflecting on whatever dissatisfaction you might have, you might be feeling and you’re and that’s that’s exactly what you’re talking to just, you know, this introspection and thinking about whether you’re happy and if not, howto latto make that change so that you can be happier. The other chapter i’d like to talk about is is called online peer-to-peer fund-raising i think that social media is something that non-profits struggle with. In fact, we had a poll for listeners to the show, and one of the question was what’s the your non-profits relationship with social media sites like facebook, twitter, youtube linked in and no one said we get it and we’re good at it and then the answers were pretty much between. You know, we see the value but aren’t getting the most out of it, and even a small percentage, you know, we don’t see the value, but i think, importantly, nobody said we understand it, and we’re good at social media. So the chapter is online peer-to-peer fund-raising it’s all about using social networks to engage your donors, to become fundraisers and engaging sort of friends to become donors. Darrien you have a lot of experience in social networks, these requires support right non-profit can’t just put up a facebook page. Well, actually, you know the non-profit can put up a facebook page just like anybody can, but the important thing to remember is when i called the store phenomenon because what you’re you’re better off not launching a facebook presence, they’re launching one and ignoring and letting it go stale. So what you don’t want to do is have a summer intern, and this happens all the time you’ve got, you know, a young volunteer or summer intern or something like that says, hey, i’m going to set up a facebook presents they put up a page for you and they, you know, maybe do one or two updates in and they go back home or they’re done volunteering or whatever the case may be, and the organization has no plan of how it’s going to keep that page fresh and lively. And so therefore all of a sudden, after couple posted just goes stale and it sits there, and it almost reflects more poorly on the organization and if you wouldn’t have launched a presence there to begin with. So the key is that, although yes, anyone can set up a paige if you’re going to send a social media presence on twitter, facebook, youtube or else where you want to make sure that you have a plan in place with resource, is that air dependable toe actually continue to put content up there, and i should tell listeners we are live today in the if you want to call and talk to darian, you can call eight seven seven four daito for one two oh eight, seven, seven for a tow for one to zero during they talk about leveraging pompel the personal social networks and there’s something very interesting about is a quote from a an executive director who thinks of his employee’s personal use of of social networks in the workplace as the twenty first century cigarette break. What do you think of that? I love that i love that comment by nicki noble who’s, one of the two office of that chapter uh, she actually used to work at the salvation army. What about e-giving? So it wasn’t a small, you know, organization with a lot of flexibility that was hurt looking policies in a very large, well established organization. And i think, you know, this is kind of vindictive of social media in general, which is, you know, one of the concerns a lot of organizations have is lovely. What if it gets out of control what people say things we don’t want them to say, etcetera and it’s kind of the better the devil, you know, than the one you don’t type thing where, you know, control is an illusion to begin with only more so now that we live in this world of social media and so you know, people are going to be doing this anyway, the idea is instead of trying to bend folks from doing stuff they want to dio, how can you rent us that and turn it into an asset for the organization? So whether that’s creating guidelines so that they have a sense of what’s appropriate and what’s not to be posting, you know, helping seat topics, etcetera on then actually encouraging them to, you know, take a couple minutes out of their daito put up, you know, a tweet on twitter or to put a facebook, etcetera, and that can actually be a good thing, and i think that what a lot of folks don’t realize is that you know, people don’t know how many people have logged into facebook in the last month, and the answer is about seven hundred million, so that makes facebook the third largest country on the planet, and you don’t have to have a presence there, but you can’t ignore it. You can’t ignore social media and the fundamental paradigm shift that represents to this bottom ofthe world. So how can you embrace that it with radical transparency and really get ahead of the curve? The authors of chapter twenty two make it explicit that the quid pro quo in that office was that the organization would be lenient with their employees, use of social media as well. A cz long as the employees were tweeting, posting facebooking about the organizations work to their own personal networks that there was a great exchange hyre we have just a couple minutes left, so let me just remind listeners that darrin’s book is non-profit management one o one, and you’ll find that at non-profits one o one dot or ge darian also is founder of the social media for non-profits conferences these aeryn seven different cities throughout the country this year. Darian what? What is sort of asked the same question asked about your book, what is this unconference siri’s contributing to the many conferences that are already out there for? Non-profits so then i mean, i think i like seeing you see, through all of my birth, the focus is on crack tips and tools, and so what you could clear, you know, there’s three chapters in the book focused on social media one my best cantor was amazing, the we talked that one from nikki noble and sean sullivan a peer-to-peer giving and then the folks it for good contributed the online fund-raising chapter and so, you know, even though there were three chapters out of thirty, thirty five submissions that that focused on media, which is quite a lot given, you know, the the significance of the issue, what became fear is now is that people were really creating more information about this topic and kind of like fund-raising where the thing people know they need and so we got a lot of books asking us to put on educational programming around social media and in particular, strategies fundrasing marketing and advocacy on so what we did is we leveraged a lot of the network i had for my work to craigslist foundation with the non-profit boot camps and some of the author’s for the book, actually, and we got folks like that cancer and geico sake and ami dar and the folks of charity water and a lot of the leaders in the social media field, and i wouldn’t call them experts because, you know, the field is changing so quickly that if anybody pretends to be an expert, you know, they’re lying or they have a big ego because it’s, you know, it’s, impossible to be an expert world students in world practitioner so how can we share our lessons learned with our fellow non-profit leaders so that they could be more effective in this funnel and landscape which maximizing their online presence so as you mentioned, were doing nine events across seven cities? Can francisco, los angeles, seattle, chicago, new york and washington d c in atlanta and we’re heading to new york next thursday on august fourth, and then from there to los angeles on august twenty seconds on, folks could learn more social media for non-profits dartboard, so social media and number four non-profits dot org’s and you’ve. You’ve hosted two so far in san francisco and washington daring we have just about a minute left before we have to go. How did those two go? They were gonna pompel they were both totally sold down, folks absolutely loved them. We had ninety plus an approval ratings on again this focus, i’m not just inspiring people, but inspiring them to action and equipping and more effective and efficient after work they’re already trying to do has been really successful, so we’re on track new york next week, and we’re very excited about how the, how the serious has been resonating with non-profit all right, i wish you luck with it, and especially on the new york city one on august fourth, again, to remind you that there’s more information at social media, the number four non-profits dot org’s darien rodriguez heman is the editor of non-profit management, one o one and founder of these social media for non-profits conferences darien, thanks very much for being a guest. Thank you for having me been a pleasure. Thank you. We’re going to take a break, and when we return, it’ll be tony’s. Take two and then welcoming our new experts in law, gene takagi and emily chan. After that, so stay with me. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics. Politically expressed buy-in, montgomery, taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com buy-in are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Buy-in hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com in-kind welcome back to the show, as i said earlier, this is our one year anniversary month, this is show number fifty two and i want to send a special thank you to people who have been listening who are listening, whether you’re listening live or you’re listening to the podcast from itunes very grateful i’m very grateful to all the listeners we have on this show at this one year anniversary month and also to the four hundred thirty plus people who are facebook fans and they get our stream on facebook. Thankyou. So to sort of celebrate, we have new regular contributors toe ad tio scott, keg alors monthly technology for non-profits segments and jean takagi and emily chan is going to be joining me very shortly, and then we also are going to be welcoming maria simple in august she’s the prospect find er she’s, a popular speaker and consultant, and she’ll have regular prospect research advice for your non-profit her first show is august twelfth. I started last week a monthly podcast interview show for the chronicle of philanthropy. It’s called fund-raising fundamentals we kicked off with gayle perry gale has been a guest on this show. She’s, the author of fired-up fund-raising turned board passion into action. I think she was an excellent first choice, teo inaugurate that fund-raising fundamentals monthly show for the chronicle of philanthropy and details for listening and subscribing to that show are on my blogged, which is m p g a devi dot com and i’ve been doing stand up comedy, and i’m having trouble keeping that separate from my work on this show and the fund-raising fundamentals for the chronicle and my speaking and keynoting. So if you notice something a little different, it’s it’s probably my stand up comedy influencing things, so keep listening because there’s change is coming. That’s tony’s take two for friday, july twenty ninth, and i’m really pleased now to welcome jean takagi and emily chan as our new regular legal contributors, jean is a principle of neo ennio, the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco, he edits to popular non-profit law block, which you’ll find at non-profit law blawg dot com emily chan is an attorney at the non-profit and exempt organizations law group. They’re based in san francisco, and she is a principal contributor to the non-profit law block, jean and emily big. Welcome to the show. Three. Thank you so much, tony. We’re thrilled to be a part of non-profit radio. It’s called very glad to have you. So i think we’re starting with a fit topic. So you want to start a non-profit. I know your office gets calls on this subject, people who are passionate about a cause and want to do something. I want to start a non-profit and what’s the first advice that you give them in thinking about that. This is family, i think, a threshold questions that we do ask for when they call it really why? Non-profit so there are individual, better, very past about fun, but sometimes that translates into also happy that would be too private evidence as a few of the public in addition to that it’s important to think about the plan who’s going to be on the board, what is the business going to look like? And funding as well? The costs involved with the initial startup and the ongoing operations? We also like to find out what’s going on with the mission and the core activities and anticipating any kind of challenges, like a conflict of interest compensation issues and thinking about who else is going to be involved in helping to run this organization. So emily that’s a ton of stuff to be thinking about, and in your experience, do you find these air, these air, new things that people haven’t have not thought through? Is that? Is that the case? Usually i think so in many cases, because sometimes that passin for the cause overtakes the practical considerations. Additionally, i think sometimes are unaware how much the law and it’s pettus upon these problems, for example, recently with the irs, there was this issue of a list of two hundred and seventy five thousand organizations have had their past six status revoked for failing to file an annual returns with three years straight. This was a change in the law that happened in two thousand six, and many small organizations simply didn’t know about it. So kind of thinking in advance. You know what air the practical things we need to do and be aware of? What are the kind of mechanical steps involved? Well, the challenges we’re going to face, sometimes things that take a backseat to that initial passion and excitement about having starting in non-profits yeah, they were definitely ongoing compliance requirements and your example, is a great one of almost three hundred thousand non-profits that weren’t complying with filing requirements with the irs, jean, what about some alternatives? There are other things that might achieve the same objective that the person has but would be a lot less onerous for them. Absolutely, tony think one of the things one of the messages that emily brought forward was that good intentions aren’t enough there’s a lot. Of administration and fund-raising involved in starting your your own non-profits i’m sure all the listeners know the alternatives that they might want to think about first is working with an existing non-profit organization, there are nearly two million non-profits out there even after the nearly three hundred thousand that were revoked with tax income status, and there are a lot of great non-profits out there doing great work and just simply to duplicate their work, i may not be the most effective and efficient way to use charitable assets, so working with existing organizations is one way another is called fiscal sponsorship, which is similar to working with another organization, but it allows you to become a project of theirs with a right to spin off. Should you later decide to form your own five o one the three on dh that’s a great way to incubate a new non-profit project see if it works, see if he can raise funds they’re going to take care of you administrated been back office ends on dh then should you become a viable ongoing concerned, then you khun later spin off and you’ve got all the benefit of learning from that. Physical sponsorship. Arrange jean notice. Ah, jean quickly defined fiscal sponsorship because i wanted to keep himself out of jargon jail. So, congratulations. You. No, no, no sentence in jargon jail, at least not for the phrase fiscal sponsorship. We’ll see what comes up. But what types of organizations would a person approach to look for a fiscal sponsor? There’s a community foundations that offer physical sponsorship, so that might be the first place to look. But there’s, also a great website called the fiscal sponsorship directory and that’s, a national directory of fiscal sponsors all over the country, and you can choose your state location to see who’s offering physical sponsorship in your area. Another great thing to look at is the national network of physical sponsors website. They provide guidelines as to what would be on appropriate form were effective form a physical sponsorship, because while there many ways to do it right, there are also many, many ways to do it wrong. Okay, excellent resource is thank you, thank you for that gene. We had a couple of poll questions for the show, and one of them was for those thinking of starting a non-profit are you aware of the alternatives that can help you reach the same goals? And no one said yes, but i want to start my own non-profit hyre a few people said yes, and i’m considering them. Most people said no, i’m not aware of the alternative, so i think this is very worthwhile discussion that was yeah, two thirds no. Sorry, about eighty five percent of people said no, not aware of the alternatives and the alternatives gene could be just as easy as giving right giving to an organization absolutely right, buddy that’s a great point that he simply wanted to contribute at your funds and volunteering another organization that may be the best thing to do instead of farming your own non-profit and having all of the administrative and filing obligations that go along with that. But of course we’re talking about ego to write. If you don’t have your own organization and you become sponsored by another, maybe a community foundation, then you have to sort of play by their rules and for some people, maybe that just doesn’t work. You get sort of ego lorts issues at all in the in these conversations, absolutely, and emily may want to jump in, but definitely there a lot of people who want to form non-profits that really have good intentions about the public, but almost as important as those good intentions is their own intentions of creating a job for themselves or creating opportunities for their family, or maybe creating opportunities for related business? No, andi okay, so we’re talking about jobs for themselves and their families. Now. Now we get into those things emily talked about, like conflicts of interest and excessive compensation rules. What about the donor advised fund has a way of as another one of the alternatives as a way of giving to a charity that does work very similar to what you want to do. How does it donor-centric for that? They would really like emily. Emily, could you speak a little louder, please? Yeah. It’s much, but yeah. Please. That’s better. Thanks. So, what donorsearch vice fund that the individual would i talked to? Was sponsoring organizations such as the public charity or a private foundation on dh set up this fund that is going to be designated by their own name and they have advisory privileges so they can advise the organization how they would like to see those funds distributed. It would be the organization, depression, how they ultimately do that. Generally, this relationship works well, because organizations aren’t goingto have individuals. These donors advice sons if they don’t take those at recommendations and advisory privileges with some weight. Okay, so, again, there’s a little ego issue there because the charity gets the final word. But in most cases, charity is wants to work with the donor, right? Right. And the donor gets to have a little bit of their egos stroked as well, because they feel like they have more say and input after what happened to these funds as opposed tio, you’re normal donations, that organization can decide where they put it within their programs and in furthering their exempt labbate and gina want to go back to something that you said just in a minute we have before a break, working with an existing charity. I mean, you might be able to just achieve what you’d like to do by volunteering. No, absolutely, if you if you have a passion about the mission, you could just volunteer for the organization. If you have a leadership goal in mind, you may be able to offer to that organization that you can raise some funds and bring it into launch a program within that organization, and they may be very happy to let you do that. If you’ve got a little bit of a working relationship with them, we’re going to take a break now with jean takagi and emily chan when we returned. You know, it’s? Not that we’re tryingto talk you out of starting a nonprofit, but jean and emily just want you to be fully informed. So when we return, we’ll talk about what the process of creating a non-profit is all about. So please stay with us. E-giving didn’t think dick tooting getting thinking thing. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. E-giving things. Good. Looking to meet mr and mrs wright, but still haven’t found the one i want to make your car relationship as fulfilling as possible. Then please join us, starting monday, may second at ten am for love in the morning with morning alison as a professional matchmaker, i’ve seen it all. Please tune in and call as we discuss dating relationship and more. Start your week off with love in the morning with marnie alison on talking alternative dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays, one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting do you want to enhance your company’s web presence with an eye catching and unique website design? Would you like to incorporate professional video marketing mobile marketing into your organization’s marketing campaign? Mission one on one media offers a unique marketing experience that will set you apart from your competitors, magnify your brand exposure and enhance your current marketing efforts. Their services include video production and editing, web design, graphic design photography, social media management and now introducing mobile marketing. Their motto is. We do whatever it takes to make our clients happy. Contact them today. Admission one one media dot com talking. Bonem lively conversation. Top trends, sound advice, that’s. Tony martignetti, yeah, that’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m travis frazier from united way of new york city, and i’m michelle walls from the us fund for unicef. Yeah, welcome back on with jean takagi and emily chan, both of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. So, after that last segment now, hopefully, if we issued the same poll, are you aware of alternatives that can help you reach the same goal as your desire to create a non-profit? Hopefully, some of you would now say, yes, i am aware, emily, what about the process for starting a non-profit somebody decides the alternatives don’t really suit them. They do want to go ahead despite all your counseling, what is the first step to creating a non-profit? Emily, i won’t have to be in there. Increase on. Emily, can i ask you to please remember to speak? Speak a little louder. Sorry. I’m getting a little bit of an echo on buy-in trying. Teo pulled the head that strategically here? Yeah, yeah, we hear you. Ok. Ok, great. So there are quite a few mechanical steps involved. And this is assuming that the individual has already thought about those important discussion points that we raised in the beginning. So these kind of steps can include taking out the name of the corporation, filing the articles. Of incorporation if it’s incorporating the state obtaining a federal employer identification numbers, then you’ll want to appoint the board of directors. Drop the by-laws important policies, such a conflict of interest policy. I have your first board meeting to adopt those government documents, then you may need to file with state, especially if this is a public charity for your trip napor stations file any other state filings, like a statement of information, then we’re going to move over now the federal level of applying for tax exemption and in california after that, you can attach your determination letter from the irs if you obtain it and file for your state tax exemption, so this generally can be described in ten steps just did. But, you know, there’s a lot of thinking that goes along the way and it’s a process that you don’t really want to start unless you’ve thought it through because you may get your tax exempt application and realize, oh, no, our mission doesn’t really fit with the exempt purpose that we’re applying for. So they are mechanical steps, but they still need to be thought about as you go through them. Okay, so that’s a ton of stuff, let’s, let’s, break it down a bit. So there were state requirements, and there were also some federal requirements. So starting with the state that i mean, you have tio incorporate in a state, right you’re you’re you’re not-for-profits corporation offgrid yes, and so there’s everything that goes along with being a corporation, those things that you mentioned, you have to appoint the board, et cetera back-up that’s all important in in order to avoid things like potential personal liability of the members if they operate is an unincorporated association, which is a possibility on dh, usually a practical possibility if it’s a very small non-profit going to operate for a limited period of time for most non-profits that tony, i think it’s important to think about inc if they’re going to be an ongoing okay, let’s, you’re treading very close to jog in jail with unincorporated association. What does that mean? It basically means you’re running as a group without filing any articles of incorporation with the secretary of state of your state. So what? What that usually means is just like in the for-profit world, tony, if you start a business and you don’t incorporate their operating is a sole proprietor or possibly the partnership trying to avoid jargon jail again, but it’s running without the formal legal entity around it to protect you from personal liability of the members and of the director’s. Yeah, and that’s and that’s. Really? Your concern is that there is the potential for personal liability if something goes wrong our what kinds of things could somebody end up being personally liable for if they’re if they’re not incorporated and they’re working as a association? Sure, what went one of the big things that you could be a lot before you hold an event and somebody gets hurt? It’s your event there is no formal entity to do like a corporation they may just decide to do. All of the members are all of the directors of that unincorporated association. In many states, they’re not protected against those lawsuits and they’ll have to defend them with their their own personal funds. Emily let’s, let’s, go back now. So we talk about the state requirements, you know, incorporating and everything that goes along with inc like you mentioned. But then there’s there’s an irs requirement to get that tax exempt. Status that five o one c three on dh we pulled the listeners and about half we’re not aware a little more than half we’re not aware of how to get five o one c three status. So first emily, why don’t you tell us what that is? Why it’s important? A five one seat status refers to dissection in the internal revenue code that gives the tax exemption for organizations public charities in order to get that discriminate. Then the organizations to file was called a form ten twenty three on dh this can be quite scary for individuals to look at it it’s quite long and asked for a lot of information is going to ask for a financial projections, the contemplated activities of the organisation, any kind of relationship that would trigger these conflict of interest issues there, you know, it’s, excessive compensation issues um, and then just general information about the organization wants an organization submits that ten, twenty three applications, the irs can take quite a while to get a determination back. It may be about three to four months assuming that the irs does not have additional questions sometimes if the application doesn’t really answer the questions fully or seems to raise some concerns that show that maybe this organization doesn’t really fit with five, twenty three, they may come back with more questions, and then you’re going to end up in the back and forth for her, who knows how long until they give you a determination of either obtaining tax exempt status or being rejected. And one of the big advantages to getting that recognition is that donors to your organization will earn a charitable income tax deduction when they give to your organization and they and they won’t before you have that status, right? Can you repeat that? Just that one of the big advantages of getting that five o one c three statuses donors earn a charitable income tax deduction? No, and they don’t have that if you’re not five o one c three recognized, right? Yeah. And, you know, a big area of your expertise, you know, that’s important organizations to realize, too in that pending time, val, the application has been filed, but they haven’t yet heard from the irs that they don’t actually have five o one c three status, even though if you file it within twenty seven months of being formed. It will go back to your formation, but until you know you can’t go out there and say, i’m a five, twenty three organization because you really don’t know yet. Excellent, we have to leave it there. Jean takagi is principal of neo, the non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco, and he edits that very popular blawg non-profit law blogger and emily chan is an attorney. Neo-sage she’s, principal contributor to the law block. Emily jean. Welcome to the show. Look forward, having you back next month, thanks so much for being on. Next week, it’s wild woman and fund-raising consultant mazarene treyz she joins me from texas to talk about her book, the wild woman’s guide to fund-raising i think we’re gonna have some fun with that. You can keep up with what’s coming up mazarene and everybody after her. By signing up for our insider email alerts on the facebook page, you go to facebook and then the name of this show, and while you’re there, click like become fan of the show, get our stream teo of information from facebook. You can always listen from itunes and subscribe at itunes so that you can listen anytime on your computer or your tablet or your smartphone. Our itunes page you’ll find at non-profit radio dot net. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff line producer and the owner of talking alternative broadcasting is sam liebowitz, and our social media is by the expert regina walton of organic social media. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio. I hope you’ll be with me next friday one two, two p, m eastern will be right here on talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com. Oppcoll dick tooting. The good ending things. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network things. Get me thinking. Cubine looking to meet mr and mrs wright but still haven’t found the one i want to make your current relationship as fulfilling as possible. Then please join us starting monday, may second at ten am for love in the morning with morning alison as a professional matchmaker, i’ve seen it all. Please tune in and call as we discuss dating relationship and more start your week off with love in the morning with marnie alison on talking alternative dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? 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