449: Leadership & The Power Of Failure – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio


This week: 

Nikki Henry wants leaders to communicate effectively, set clear expectations, break down barriers, embrace DEI, and more. She’s CEO of Ladies Leading Ladies and she spills it all.

The Power Of Failure
Failures are as powerful as success stories to rally folks around your cause. Whitney Raver encourages you to embrace your bungles and botches – and share them with your communities. She’s chief development strategist at What’s The Word. 

There’s more at tonymartignetti.com 

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, the Video guide for non-profit marketing, which is the definitive guide. I’m in it, they quoted me. Ah, and it’s a very astute, articulate on accurate quote. They got it right, Um, in all its students and articulateness, this guide is from type Ito T y p i t o type a type edo dot com. They’re the canvas of video. The guide includes the strategic like acquisition, engagement, stewardship and tactical, like lower thirds and captioning and text animation. You’ll find this thing that I’m in at t y p i t o dot com and I thank them for including me and I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of Dalek. Oh, several ism if you hit me with the heady idea that you missed today’s show leadership. Nikki Henry wants leaders to communicate effectively set clear expectations, break down barriers embrace D I and more. She’s CEO of ladies leading ladies, and she spills it all. Then the power of failure failures are as powerful as success stories to rally folks around your cause, Whitney Raver encourages you to embrace your bungles and Boches and share them with your communities. She’s chief development strategist at What’s the Word on Tony Steak, too? Show number 450 Responsive by Wagner C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com By koegler Mountain Software, Denali, fundez. They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communication, Shin’s PR and content. For non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here’s Nicky Henry and leadership. It’s my pleasure to welcome to the show Nikki Henry. She is the founder and CEO of Ladies Leading Ladies, a company dedicated to helping women and non binary people grow as supportive leaders. She’s a passionate dork. She’s at ladies underscore leading underscore, and the company is at ladies leading ladies dot com. Welcome to non-profit radio. Nikki Henry. Thank you so much, Tony. My pleasure. What’s a passionate dork? So I call myself a dork because I am super, uh, nerdy in the way that I want to make sure that data and research backs up what I am teaching with leadership. As I was growing as a leader, I always went back to the data and research and my undergrads in psychology. So I just have that nerdy numbers data research part of me. But I’m super passionate, and I I have worked in non-profits for the last decade because I care about families, and I care about our communities. Okay. Uh, it’s fair. Of course. You know, that was that. I didn’t label you that. That’s Ah, that’s your idea, That is, um So we were supposed to connect that? Ah, 1990 sea. And then you were so passionate about helping your audience on. They wanted so much of you afterwards that you couldn’t make it to the recordings boost on time. And so now so here we are, many months later, but I’m glad it worked. Doubt metoo piela very. For a while, I was a little I was a little noncommunicative. You e mailed. And then I said Okay, hold on. I’ll get I’ll get to you when you know when I have a breaking schedule. So I don’t know. I hope that, uh see, I like Esso I was not reaching out. Um, I like to lead by fear and intimidation. Um uh, condescension. You, no doubt. So that’s my style. That’s right. That’s why that’s why I wasn’t getting back to you. I mean, we could have done this the first week after ntcdinosaur. I wanted to exercise my leadership in my, uh, my white male privilege and authority. Oh, my goodness. Just so fun. Yeah. So I feel like that’s my leadership style. Is that is that is that in line with what you’re doing at the lady’s leading ladies? You know, I feel like you just did my intro and the opposite. Yeah. Okay, so my my method is the antithesis of yours. I would say so. All right. I don’t know. Fear and doubt and loathing and condescension. They seem to work well for me, but all right way don’t have to go down that way. Um, So you want Thio? Well, tell me what leading ladies leading ladies is about. Yeah. So this company really came out of my own experience in the workplace. And like I said, I spent about 10 years in non-profits working in different leadership roles, and I noticed a couple of things. One, especially in the nonprofit world, were very much trial by fire. I got thrown in, um, you know, as a first time leader and had to figure it out. So there was a lot of that imposter syndrome going on with me. A lot of the scared that people are gonna find out. I don’t know what the heck I’m doing. Um and so I just dove into teaching myself. So I definitely saw that piece. I saw that lack and I saw that white space, especially with our non-profits on properly training and investing in our leaders so that we conserve our community’s best. And the second thing I saw is one of the programs that I worked with. We scaled rapidly over a five year period. We went from four full time employees to 55 during that time that I was there. And so we had a ton going on. And what I noticed was specifically the women that I worked with who were incredibly hard working so intelligent, um, and had been with me from the get go, weren’t throwing their hat in the ring for those promotions. And for those management opportunities. And so I got to really chat with them and dig in. But I know this isn’t a unique problem. This is something that we’re facing in our workplaces where we have a lack of representation of really strong, amazing women in those leadership roles. Okay. And you want to turn that around Exactly. Okay. Uh, so you’re some of your advice is around effective communications for women. So what are what are what are women not getting right that they could be doing better around communications And And how do we sex it? You know what’s fun s o with the with the business. I really have a passion around bringing women and non binary people into representation and leadership. But what I teach is not gender specific. And what I actually found, the more that I dug into research and data, you know, from Gallup in different areas is that if we’re gonna go with gender stereotypes, women are actually better prepared to be the most effective leaders. Based on what the data is showing us, an effective leader looks like. And what that means is now we need coaches. We don’t need managers. We need. People who are focusing on relationships are focusing on development are focusing on, um, that communication, bringing together multiple perspectives and really creating a team versus just the top down, you know, crack the whip type of accountability that we may have had in the past and may still have in many workplaces. So it’s really about that communication and getting to know your people one on one as human beings and how you can uniquely motivate them to be the most successful team member that they could be. Okay, s o teamwork. Collaborative. You know, people, uh, we just have, like, a minute and 1/2 or so before before our break. What? How come we, uh s So how can we break down the barriers that exist between leader and following, You know, whatever Employer, employee advisor, supervisor worker. I mean, is it as simple as just like social events o r. Go deeper? I think it’s deeper, and I think it’s two main things. I think that it’s training and rewarding our leadership for being those supportive leaders or as burn a Brown says a daring leader. Um and then the second piece is really focusing on diversity equity and inclusion. I know you were speaking about that on a previous podcast where we really have to dive into our own identity is the identities of those that were working with and be able to really embrace the assets that come along with that diversity and an inclusive workplace. Yeah. Yeah, we did. We get ah, a couple of d I topics and 19 ntc and we talked about it before that. Um right. Why don’t we, uh, take our break right now? Pursuant. They’ve got a podcast as well, and there’s there’s is go beyond. It’s hosted by their vice president, Taylor Shanklin, who’ve been a guest on non-profit radio a couple times. Ah, a couple of recent episodes of go beyond our Self Care for Leaders and four digital trends. For 2019 you will find the podcast Go beyond at pursuing dot com slash Resource is now let’s go back. Thio. Nikki Henry. Okay. Thank you for that indulgence, Nikki. Henry. Absolutely. Go take care of our our sponsors. Um all right. Um So how do we so I’d like to get into some some, you know. How do you do it? Not just not just not just what to do, but but how So how can How can an effective leader get to know they’re there? There, folks better abila more, more personally. You know, as you were saying, Yeah, So at 19 NTC, um, I was going through this with our group there and some of the three top things that I really focus on our your communication. So both in meetings and facilitating those meetings, setting clear goals and just motivating and engaging your team. So one of the things that I really push, um, and have seen work in my own work but also in others is that our leaders take time to sit down one on one on a weekly basis with each of their direct reports. And when I say that people screeched to a halt because nobody needs more mean eight meetings, nobody wants to be stuck in meetings more than they already are. Right? So it’s really about how to make those meetings productive. Um, And how Thio, I understand that making that investment of time these weekly one on ones or 25 30 minutes make that investment of time is actually going to give you more time on the return because you’re having less of people knocking on your door and saying Hey, do you have a minute? Hey, can I ask you a question? Hate kanai This on the same page? You’re aligning at least weekly. Nobody. Converium off course too far if you’re really talking on a weekly basis and you work into that weekly conversation a human element as well. So asking people about their Weiqing of weekend asking people about their family and making sure that there is that human element in it as well as we move forward. Okay, this is related to something I just read on Seth Gordon’s Blawg. Okay, basically, he was talking about slack. You know that we don’t have to be so tightly, um timed and so efficient in the in the short term that in the long term we’re going to suffer. He uses the analogy of airplanes the way you know it. Sze time down to the minute. And if there’s a storm, you know when every plane is being utilized in the short time in the immediate term there’s a storm or a breakdown of an aircraft, there’s no slack built in. So the whole system cascades and can collapse. If there’s a storm in L. A or New York or Chicago Santa, um, the whole country can come to a halt aircraft. So, um, you know, So his recommendation is, you know, don’t be so short term focused and build in some what you might consider to be inefficiency in the short term. But in the long term, it’s gonna be it’s gonna give you rewards. That sounds like you’re saying, have these weekly 30 minute meetings. Um, what you’re gonna know they’re gonna cause you a little tightness in, but in the long run, you’ll get you’ll get Amore, I guess Committed employees who you get to know someone who’s gonna be more likely to come to you with a problem instead of quit when there’s a problem. Exactly. Take a week of Lee sick leave and then quit while there’s reportedly sick. They’re out looking for you. Actually had an interview. Yeah. Yeah, they’re gonna talk to you and you’ll develop amore more committed. More, more collaborative employees. Exactly. All right. All right. So 30 minutes, 30 minute, one on ones. You okay? What What else do you like to see so and a lot of these, they might sound like we’re going back to the basics, right? But another latto always. That’s not always, but that’s not always bad. Yes, we could use a more basic. So I think it’s important because we might know these things. But practicing them is a whole different thing. So I also talk about smart girls, which again people kind of roll their eyes because I asked everyone in the room How many of you have heard of smart goals? Almost everyone raises their hands, right? And then I asked people, How many of you are utilizing that when you give out, you know, a task list or goals to your team members? Crickets? Very rarely are people actually looking at. Okay, we’re talking about what our priorities are for the weak. I’m, you know, helping someone to set those priorities. But I didn’t take the extra 30 seconds, one minute, two minutes to go through and make sure that it was specific that we know how we’re measuring success. But it’s actually achievable that it’s relevant to what we’re working on the big picture. So we’re not just doing busywork and that there’s a deadline that were clear. And if we actually took those act extra 30 seconds to two minutes to go through that with things that were asking of our team, we would have such a more efficient workplace. But also we would have such a better relationship because our expectations are a lie. And we know what’s being asked of us. We have clear expectations. And also, as a leader, you’re going to get a project or a product that is actually what you asked for versus that person trying to read your mind and ending up. You get something and you say, What the heck is? This is not what I asked for it all. And you know okay, yeah, clear expectations, any anything. So let’s ah, shift a little bit from Well, they’re all related. But expect eight expectations setting no more advice around making that clear for people. Yes, I think that you know, those two things really tied together. So the smart girls on the one on ones because you want to be talking early often, Um, and especially as we are in Thio, a millennial generation that’s taking you know, is the largest part of our work force. You’re gonna see the same with Jen’s e J. Expect early and often immediate feedback. And so that’s going to increase that relationship. Increase that communication and decrease the times that you’re really going to end up with someone not understanding their expectations and veering off course so early and often regular feedback, both good and bad. Eso really balancing those? The other thing that I will say, especially because you’re putting these extra meetings on um on the calendar, is don’t hold meetings that could have been an email, so you’re already taken the time to sit down one on one. Don’t hold the weekly staff meeting or the weekly department meeting. If you’ve got nothing to say. If you’ve got no nothing that needs to be brainstorm or worked out as a team, if it’s just an update to policy, it’s a memo. It’s a schedule whole thing. Shoot it in an email, don’t add more time to meetings because that’s why people really, really dread them is because they’re just sitting in something that they could have read in an email in five minutes. Okay, you’re, uh go, Just go on back to the first point you made about being honest. You know it, Sze totally unfair to an employee Thio to find out at the annual or the semi annual performance review that you know there’s a problem with something exactly. And it’s been festering for months. For months or something, you never give the person a chance. Toe improve. Now you’re now it’s formal. Now it’s written now. Now they feel like they’ve been shat on Andi and they got like, a blind sided races versus having a conversation with him in one of the 30 minute one on one meetings. You know, there’s a problem. This is not. This is not the way we I want this done or you’re not meeting expectations or whatever the heck it is from from the hours you keep to the attire to the to the smelly food you do in the kitchen. You know, whatever it is, you’ve got to tell people and give them a chance to improve. Absolutely. And it’s something that leaders really struggle with, right? There’s a lot of the times were promoted into leadership positions because of the good job that we did in our last position, not because we particularly have leadership skills or or those types of things. It’s a reward for doing a good job. And so that means that we get a lot of leaders who haven’t had any leadership training. I think the last study that I looked at, over 45% of current leaders and managers have had no leadership or management training at all. We treat it as if it’s a talent or a natural ability, where, as it’s a skill just like learning, excel or learning a new database, Um and so a lot of people are conflict avoidance. And so they have a hard time having those easy at the beginning conversations about you know, Hey, you’re wearing too much perfume and it’s given so and so a headache. You know, something silly like that. They don’t have that up front, and then it turns into like what you’re saying. They’re being blindsided in a formal evaluation instead of just having a quick conversation. So building those relationships and trust and respect on a weekly basis also helps the leader to be more comfortable to bring those things about with with their employees and with their team members. But it’s also something that has to be practiced, and it has to be rewarded in the workplace as well for our leaders to be assertive and thio Thio knit problems in the bud and have those open and frank conversations. If someone says they don’t have enough time to do 30 minute meetings with everyone that reports to them, does that mean they have too many direct reports? So I was just going to say I have one of two answers. Either you are overseeing too many people directly, Um, or you are You don’t have any time because your people are constantly interrupting you. So there’s, you know, to kind of pieces to that. So if you’re generally speaking, if you are overseeing more than 10 people directly meaning there is no level of, you know someone in between, there’s not another person. They can go to. A lot of the time CEOs think. Well, I oversee the entire company. No, no, no. Just your direct reports. Um, if you’re overseeing more than 10 then probably you’re not able to give them the time that they need to be a coach versus just being a manager, and that is going to hold back your employee engagement, which then holds back the success of your teams in the success of your organization. So that is one thing. But the other piece is people think that they don’t have time. Well, if you took intentional time with your team, you would see within a month. If you really committed to this, you would see a huge amount of time saved because you were dealing with it on the front end, versus being reactive. Okay. Okay, Cool. Um, how about some motivation, huh? You touched on little Bit’s talk about explicitly motive motivating the folks who work for you. Yeah. So each of your each of your employees is a unique human being there in the work that they do for unique reasons. So getting to know them in those weekly meetings and elsewhere to understand why the they do the work they do is gonna be incredibly helpful to you as a leader, because then you can tap that’s specific reason to help motivate them. But more generally, I think there are a couple of things that we can do to motivate and create an engaging work environment as well. I think one thing is encouraging friendships at work. So not being the boss that walks into the room and then everyone’s a she because you’re not supposed to be talking, um, so allowing that also creating opportunities for people tohave lunches together to get together off the clock toe, you know, feel like they can actually create, um, these relationships that help them to be more resilient in the workplace. And I think also one huge piece of motivation that I think is often missed is talking to people about their long term development. And I talk a lot about doing that through what I call stay interviews and not just me. Everybody calls him stay interviews, Um, but a stay interview is a play on an exit interview. We get all of this really robust, amazing information when people walk out the door. Well, why don’t we ask those questions once or twice a year or once 1/4 and get that really important information? While we still have the talent, Let’s keep the town. Let’s retain them so deeper into their development in their long term career planning. So asking questions like what is it that troubles you here. What would you do differently like that? Exactly? Yeah. Taking exactly those exit interview questions and turning them into stay interview. So why do you work here? What do you love most about your job? What would you change if you had a magic wand and have that authority to do? So? What are some benefits that would make a difference to you wanting to stick around in this job? You know, things like that. Okay, Uh, now on the friend you know, that sort of developing the friendship side. I’ve had people say that they resent some of that. Why did they have to be friends with co workers? They’re they’re happy to have them. His coworkers. Why do they have to take them on his friends? I you know, and I totally get that. And I hear that as well from folks. And here’s the reason why, as a manager or a leader, you should push this because through research and study specifically through Gallup, they have shown that those who have a best friend at work are significantly more engaged and therefore significantly more productive at work. And when you think about it just, you know, anecdotally. Of course, If I got to show up every day and work with my best friend, I’m probably gonna be more happy to be there more eager to show up. You know, a happier human being and knowing that I have someone that I trust that I convinced to all of those things having that resiliency within the workplace is is fantastic. Not everyone’s gonna do it. Not everyone is going to be that engaged employees. They’re gonna be that there are going to be the types that one o’clock and clock out, go home, not talk about their personal life. Keep a very compartmentalized life. But I will say is the generations go on. That’s less and less because people don’t see the clear delineation between their work-life in their home life. Especially with technology. Yeah, especially right. Right. That’s that has changed. So much of our work-life is interwoven. In-kind personal. Okay, um, any, uh, any, like, special or, uh, types of events that you like to see or something fun that maybe people haven’t thought of it. We could all go out for drinks. You know, maybe it’s a bowling night, right? pizza on Fridays. You got something something special beyond the humdrum stuff that I just named. Sure, I think what’s important is to actually give your employees ownership over this. So what I’ve done in some of my past work places is to create. And they called themselves the fund committee. Um, but to create that committee and actually allow the employees to decide what they want to do with that time and if you can throw a little budget at it Wonderful. But also again coming from non-profit. Ah, one of the places that I worked with. We just did not have the budget for that. You know, we’re very Grant restricted and and we weren’t gonna get that that fund money. So what we decided to do instead is we worked with our controller, and we all decided to deduct $2 each paycheck to go into a fund committee fund because we wanted to get to know each other better. We wanted to have teamed building on, and it’s completely optional. And it’s a knot of, you know, we don’t send out the list to say, Hey, so and so is not in the fun committee. Um but, you know, allow that and then allow them to decide what it looks like with your approval to make sure that you’re not having an HR nightmare or you’re not, You know, misusing funds or anything like that. But let them have ownership. Let them decide, Let them tell you. Okay, okay. To try to ah, tryto resuscitate myself or laser tag. Laser tag. Could you do that? That’s not humdrum. I lovely attack. Yeah, Yeah. Um uh, Anything else you want to say about motivation? You know, I I think what’s important And this is something that I think we’re actually relatively good at in the nonprofit world, but is important to come back to We have to come back to our mission and we have to come back to our why on a regular basis. It’s really easy when we air show stressed with multiple grants and funding streams. And what not to get caught up in the numbers and your team? What they hear when they just hear numbers, numbers, numbers is that you’ve lost touch with the client. You’ve lost touch with the families. You’ve lost touch with the communities that we serve. So making sure that you’re bringing yourself back, but also as a team that you’re spending time to really reflect on how you are serving your miss mission, which is most of the reason why. Probably your team works for you right now. Bring it back to the mission. Yes. Frequent, I think. Frequent visits to the mission. Yeah, certainly in terms of new programs or new ideas that are bubbling because this is going to be a collaborative, contributing team, and they’re gonna have ideas, you know? Do they? That may be a great idea, but does it work within what were charged to do? Okay. All right. So we’re talking about a lot about meetings. I’m guessing you have some tips on running effective meetings. Efficient, productive. Happy meetings. Yes. Okay, let’s start with something that’s old friends of mine or the technology. Like the technology rules for meetings our phones allowed. Do you need Oh, my gosh. We only have two minutes left. Okay, uh, let’s do justice to tech rules for meetings. Okay? So I actually, I’m a millennial, so I am guilty of having all of my technology in the room when I’m doing meetings, but at the end of the day, as I’ve worked with people from different generations and different values as well. It doesn’t even have to be a generational thing. Those who do not allow technology in the meeting room, they have been much more productive. And it pains me as a millennial to say that, but it is absolutely true. Leave your laptop back there, leave your phone in your office because you’re their toe work together. And everyone in your meeting should have a reason that they’re there. They should be someone who is contributing to the meeting. Otherwise, they shouldn’t be invited, Um, or made to sit through something. So put the phones away and focus on what you’ve got there and use that collaborative creativity. Okay, Um, now I’ve heard there could be an exception. You know, uh, my my pet is in surgery for my son is in surgery or my dad is in surgery. No. So that could be exceptions for those you know, those kinds of cases, right? I see that. But also that is a weekly, a slippery slope. So here’s what I say. Yes, there are always emergencies, but let someone know for the next hour, they need to call the front office. Then they need to call this phone line. And if there is an actual emergency, your receptionist, your office manager will come in and get you. But if you’re talking about in an emergency, then you pick up that phone every five seconds to check it, and you’re getting out of the flow of that collaboration, okay? And then there’s also the slippery slope, you know? Well, she had her son, but I don’t have children, but I have a cat cats in surgery. My cat is just like a child to me. Exactly. It’s not right. All right. Next to becomes a pet spider than the turtle, you know, gets ridiculous. All right, All right, Nikki. Henry, we gotta leave it there. All right? Thank you, Tony. My pleasure. She’s the founder and CEO of Ladies Leading Ladies. You’ll find her at ladies. Underscore leading underscore and the lady’s leading ladies dot com. It’s time to take a break. Yes, it is. Indeed. Uh, Wagner, C p A’s. They’ve got a free webinar on August 6th. Developing high impact grants. Improve your grants, research and writing. You’ll find it at Wagner cps dot com. Click Resource Is and upcoming events. If you miss it live, then watch the archive. Wagner cps dot com Quick Resource is and recorded events makes perfect sense. Did I mess something up here? Pardon me? Yeah, but, uh, but I didn’t do Wagner. I’m I I did already. No, I didn’t. I think you messed me up. I’m blaming it on Sam because I don’t have any interns. If I have an intern, I’ve blamed the answer we need in turns into show. So I have somebody to blame when there’s a screw up. Like right now, I don’t have one, but it’s certainly not my fault. It couldn’t be so. It’s just that that’s outside the realm of its Not it’s inconceivable, and I don’t mean inconceivable, like uh, like they using conceivable in the Princess Bride. I mean, it is inconceivable, so it must be Sam’s fault. Thea Other thing. The other sponsor that we need to talk about is Cougar Mountain software. Maintaining separate accounts for each fund Ain’t a ning daily expenses reporting to the board, these air or all challenges that you face. That’s why Cougar Mountain created Denali Fund It’s your complete accounting solution specifically designed for non-profits. They have a 60 day free trial. You’ll find that at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two. I’m positive. Sam screwed me up here. I know he did. You left out a break. Okay, the, uh, 450th chauffeur non-profit radio. It’s next. Next week, For God’s sake, It’s July 26th. 2019 is coming up. What’s coming up on the two on the 450th show? Ninth anniversary. Been at this for nine years. 2010 giveaways. We’ve got your coffee giveaways, Of course. Kira is the coffee company that supports coffee growers and workers through providing dental care in the dental care like my voice was crackly. I’m 14. That’s how excited I get back your coffee. They provide dental care because the president of the company, the founder, is a dentist, but they provide dental care to coffee bead growers and workers. As you buy their coffee, you’re supporting that work that we’ve got giveaways from Cure a coffee. I’ll probably go away. Some books from the library, the non-profit Video Library where authors have given me multiple copies of books and What I’ve Got. Live music. Scott Stein, of course. Scott Stein from Brooklyn, who plays are, will play our theme song Complete Cheap Red Wine You Played Completely Through. And then, of course, we’ll count on him to play another song as well. And he’ll be here with this keyboard. Clear Myer. Half our creative producer is gonna be in town. Um, we got all the regular contributors calling in Aimee Semple Ward, Jean Takagi and, of course, Maria Semple. They’ll all call in. We’re welcoming new sponsors. You have heard a couple of shows with them already, but we’re going to formally welcome Cougar Mountain and turn to Communications as our new sponsor. So there’s a shitload going on. Um, and I can say that because my show what I could do, whatever the hell I want. You don’t like it? You’re not gonna stop listening. I mean, well, I mean, you could, but the odds of you doing it just cause I said shit one time so small, it’s it’s inconceivable. So there’s a shitload going on. Be with us for July 26 next week, the 450th show. There’s more on my video out. Could you imagine I could be any more to say on this topic, but watch the video anyway. The video is that tony martignetti dot com and I recorded it in my car. So Zwart watching for that reason since that makes. But let’s do the live listen to love. Ah, there’s a ton of it. Oh, yes, Sam the noisy eh commission. I think that Sam is really screwing up today. You forgot to turn the air conditioner off with my mike. Went live. Now you hear it. See how much quieter is now? That’s because there’s no air conditioning. You heard the buzz. You didn’t know what it was that you really all right. I’m not paying for this week’s show, All right? The live. Listen, love. Where the hell is it? We got listeners in. At least we had. We may have just left in the past three minutes, but we had a few minutes ago. Listeners in Rochester, New York, Tampa, Florida Irving, Texas Washington, D. C. Newburgh New broke New York. I love that straight up, right up the Hudson River. A little bit not upstate New Yorkers. New York City but I don’t live here anymore, so I don’t consider it upstate. Newberg. Welcome. Live love to you. Multiple New York, New York. Um, where else we got? Seoul, South Korea. Loved one soul checks in annual haserot comes a ham Nida Tokyo is with us very loyal. Also very loyal listeners in Tokyo Konnichi wa Beijing Beijing is with us equally loyal Ni hao to our Beijing listeners live love there. Moscow, Russia. That’s a pretty frequent Dublin Ireland. Not sure you’ve been with us before. Um, welcome. I’ve love to Ah, to Dublin. Um And there’s another sheet I left out a whole bunch of sheet coming back here. Alexandria, Virginia. We got listeners live love there, but then going abroad again. Oh, another South Korea yon yon gene or young in South Korea. Also on your haserot Too young Jean Athens, Greece. Welcome. I think that’s new. Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Live love to you and Afghanistan. Herat, Afghanistan. I know. That’s first time. I’m so glad you’re with us. Afghanistan. Live love to you and the podcast Pleasantries. They got to go out because it’s over 13,000. You know eso whatever time zone you are, in whatever device you’re listening on pleasantries to you. I’m grateful that you’re with us. I’m grateful the show continues to grow. Uh, I can’t say Week after week grows every single week, but month after month year, the trending is up. So it’s all good. That’s that’s very positive. Pleasantries toe our podcast, listeners all right after that raving ranting. It’s ridiculous. I’m not. Whitney Raver should probably hung up. She was on the phone. If she’s still with us, she’s our next guest on, and I’m pleased to welcome her, Assuming she’s with me. She is the founder and chief development strategist at What’s the word? That’s a growth acceleration agency focused on amplifying non-profit impact. She teaches how to use stories to build trust and raving loyalty among donors. I’m starting to ratchet it down now. I have to have a conversation with Whitney, for God’s sake, get piela linked a woman she and the company are both at What’s the world inc dot com and at oh, what I said, No, that’s not it. It’s what’s the word? Inc dot com? Pardon me, What’s the word? Inc dot com and at what’s the word Inc Welcome to the show. Whitney River. Are you still there? I am here. Who could leave that performance? I can think of a lot of people. My mom for number one and my dad, but they don’t listen to begin with. So that turned them off years ago. Um, welcome. It’s good to have you. You are calling from the Black hills of South Dakota. That’s awesome. That’s way West. You got Mount Rushmore, Badlands National Park. That’s a beautiful part of our country. Yeah. Oh, I love it. I’m 20 minutes away from the most beautiful national mom in the world. And of course, I live smack dab in the middle of four. So I’m surrounded by the most beautiful hills in the world, I think, but at least you might be biased. Like, you know, New Yorkers think it’s the center of the world. But you deserve to think highly of the black hills. So, um what? So you have what are some of the monuments there that you have? So we have not rushmore. That’s about 20 minutes away from my house. We have, like, he said, Badlands. The Black Hills are a national monument, and then we have. My personal favorite is the crazy Horse Memorial has been works there and their longtime friends of his family, and it’s just up. They’re carving a giant mountain buy-in into, you know, putting over the Black Hills. And it’s just incredible to see they’re carving the carving crazy horse into the side of a mountain like Mount Rushmore into hyre Mountain. It’ll be, um, 3 60 It’ll be an entire mountain, not just one face of it. So Mount Rushmore will be will be minimal. Minimize is minimal compared to this 360 degrees. What kind of project? How long does that latto many years? Does that take? Oh, it’s you know, they’re expecting It’ll be done in about 60 years the last time I checked. Plus, they’re also very because they’ve gotten a few new drill and technology has come along. The founder cortex Socolovsky was carrying his jack up the mountain and doing it by hand. It may take 60 years. You cut out a little bit there, but 60 years, you’re incredibly patient in South Dakota, you have to finish that thing in like, 20 minutes. Here in New York, we just start trampling on it or somebody would steal it or Or graffiti it, Uh, maybe 1/2 an hour. Give it. But 60 years. Damn, you have. Um I have a lot of patients I also love. You know, you have that enormous space, South Dakota. And there’s about 800,000 people who live there. Brittney, did you turn me off? Oh, we didn’t turn you off. Okay, You have 100,000 people. I mean, we have We have 8,000,000 in a little island here. Uh, I don’t know what the dimensions are, but it’s got to be, like 1 10/1000 the size of South Dakota. And we have 8,000,000 8 and 1/2 about 9,000,000 or something like that. You have 800,000 in the whole freakin state. That’s incredible. It’s another person. Yeah. Yeah, well, you’re surrounded by a forest. All right. Um, okay, enough geography, but thank you. We never had having had a call from South Dakota. Our guest from South Dakota. So, um, so, uh, this topic of failures little personal for you because you ran for the for the South Dakota House of Representatives. As did it. It didn’t go so Well. Well, yes. No. And we can absolutely talk about way. Are we talking about it right now? What do you mean? We can We are. We’re doing it. Let’s start no more about it than I do so well in that I did not win. Um, I mean, ballots were cast, and I end up going to appear, which, you know, broke my heart. But I did my job. I served three and gave my neighbors a choice. Okay, but what I feel really right was, um, in speeches and to be going in and e-giving a perspective, an opportunity to think of things in a way that they have never Ben exposed to before had just results. And I tell you what, I got dozens of phone calls, and in the days and weeks after that election from people who just said, Gosh, I just wish I had voted for you. What? Why didn’t he? Hey, so if I do it again, it might be a whole new conversation. Okay, but what came out of that, uh, that, uh I had to say that failure, That that lack of success I don’t know. I mean, we could use the word failure. The cell, The second is about failure. Look what came out of that. Would you learn from that failure that informs your your, uh, don’t fear your failure practice really? That people have to be spoken to. You know, I feel like it was closer to my community that the constituents in this district actually trusted. Or after after I had failed and gone back into them and and, you know, um, we’re we’re still in this together. You can still count on me saying that I have had promised Call me email me. Here’s my social media and where no one really did before while I was right, I still get plenty tons of e mails and phone calls all the time. You know, we need a brave voice for this issue. Would you mind keeping us in this capacity? So even though I failed, I think that because I was so open with it and because I was so accepting of it, I really have done a lot more to earn the trust of my community, simply running an offering to take that position. Okay, Awesome. And, uh, we’re gonna go take our first break. And when we come back, that’s a perfect transition. Cause you want, um, you want non-profits toe earn The trust of folks are well, we’ll continue with that. After we take this very short break Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories and help you build support, media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. This is all of what turned to does. They’re at turn hyphen to DOT CEO. I’ve got butt loads, more time for the power of failure and Whitney River Whitney. So what is this trust That, uh, I mean, it’s I think it’s implicit buy-in non-profit relationships, but we want to talk about it explicitly, asking for trust and building trust. How do you feel that sharing your failures helps? Helps that I want nick down the importance of trust non-profits all over staying a decline in donorsearch ship and e-giving, and it’s really it’s their capacity for impact. And one of the reasons for that is because you were then 20% of potential donors trust organization, and there is a wide range of reasons for that. We as non-profits and as impact creators view the world is it could be has to do a better job of not just vacating our vision but bringing people in on that vision. And that requires a more three dimensional story, um, or hope, view of our And that includes sharing her, sharing our failures. Yeah, um, listeners, I know that Whitney is cutting out a little bit. It’s it’s something in the phone. But we’re pretty sure that if even if she calls back, it’s not gonna make a difference of Whitney. I may ask like I’m a repeat. Something that I I think you’ve said or I asked you to repeat something. Okay, because you’re cutting out a little bit. I think it may help, though, if you speak louder. Okay. Okay. Um, all right. So yeah. I mean, this is this is, uh, consistent with what we know about personal relationships, right? I mean, if to build trust with I don’t know, a spouse, a friend, you know, you you share and and just over time, I mean, you don’t want to share the good things that you share. What’s what’s happening in your life, and it’s not all good. And over time that the people you’re sharing with feel that they’ve been brought into your you brought them into your confidence. Great. You pick each other up and buy a shared your failures and kind of throwing your bungles out there. You give your community a chance, your hero. You tend to take it as a non-profit, the place of the hero in the grand story. And if you read Donald Miller Story brand, you know that Really, Um the odd wants to be the hero. And by sharing your failures and giving them a chance t and help you as part of you, you really give them the opportunity to the hero in that story. And that’s one of the ways you you gain trust and and buy-in. Okay, I’m not clear on something. Uh, making someone the hero of the story could flush that abila more sure to be sure to talk. So, as a nonprofit organization, you you tend to be the hero in the grand scheme of your vision. You are connecting and volunteers to your beneficiaries to serve your mission and the role of donor or volunteers can’t sometimes be inadequately highlighted. The people who stand on the sidelines wondering whether or not they should get of their time or their money are there. They’re looking for some reprieve and by giving them an opportunity to serve you first as xero. So to speak, in the story outline of communication, you give them the opportunity to feel like they’re really important to you and therefore to the mission. Okay, so making your donors and volunteers and Central Central to the story. Great. Okay. Okay. Um, have you seen this? Ah, have you seen examples of this? Any stories you can share that you think I’ve been done? Well, certainly. We’ll tell you about the startup that we’re working with right now. It’s high altitude training. And these these books have an incredible mission. It’s a group of elite long distance athletes who have together to show how sustainable living is the road, who meeting our highest human potential. And they they’re promoting sustainable living practices and agriculture and energy, and they’re using their competition to show to build a community around these ideas. Obviously, as an athlete, you can’t show up and take every time every time you raised rape. Yeah, So we have to make sure that our community and we’re building a wide, um, community of donor sponsors, volunteer participants. That community needs to be with us, and you stand that, You know, we may come in 10 but that is not any less important to our mission. We have to be able to show them how every every failure, every pore, placement, every station is an opportunity to refine our actions and refined and learn more about the lifestyle that we’re trying eat and how to become better at it on dhe. How do they do? They or generally are you recommending, you know, like coming out, right? Like asking for trust Or this is just something that you build implicitly. You know, Bo, what’s it? For the most part, I’ll go back to Tiu Thio, you know, shit. Like my marriage, for instance, my husband and I just celebrated 12 years, and, um, when we when we first started dating, I adamantly against marriage or any, you know, major commitment. Because I didn’t have that kind of trust. And I think a lot of people can relate to that over time. You, you you you work other, you fail together, you grow together and you realize that we’re We’re in this together. You’re important. I’m important. We have to come together to to serve the school. Did you? Yeah. It does make sense. Um, you start by by by sharing. You start by moving it. Build enough of a background you do You turn to them and ask them. Trust me. Don’t need volunteer. Give speak. But in order to make that request valid, you want to spend your time building that relationship and half of half of it is testing. The other half is failure. Yeah, well, it doesn’t have to be 50 50. I mean, you could we could be a little more optimistic. Make it like 60 40 right? Failure, success to failure. And let s oblique is just, like half, but, you know, out there in South Dakota, please, Ideally, it doesn’t come up very often, but when it does, you know you don’t want to You don’t be the ones behind behind the eight ball, you know you want you want to get well, for instance, you know, this is kind of a political topic, but the, um, fiasco in Florida with the Florida charity. Um, they were in a position to receive a station from a questionable fund raiser. Um, you know, as soon as it hit the public act out and there there were two ways to go about handled situation and positioning yourself in that situation. And when we when we come up against, um, situations like that very, You know, 1/3 party may not a lot or best interest in mind, but their actions may not align with our mission. Our vic gold. We take a stand, and instead of receding into the you want to stand up and explain, you know where you are in the story, how you responded, how your response reflect on mission in values and division so that that story isn’t written by someone else. What about selecting the right failures to talk about? I can envision some that you shouldn’t, but let’s let’s put aside the ones that are that are public, and then, you know you have to you have to share. But, uh, you know, there’s some things that you might be a might be a bad hyre or something. I mean, what what types of failures. Would we include or not? Include? Okay, So, like you said some just public And you know, if it’s if it’s going to take off in the media, you definitely want to get that. Yeah, of course. But others include white fun galas. Think things like that where maybe you don’t have the amount that you were hoping for. Yeah, you know, a lot of organizations. What they’ll do is they’ll take their attendees and squeeze them into a little ball and take a picture to make it look like they’re 100. And they’ll put that story out and, you know, talk about the great turn and everything that was accomplished. But we still need you to donate really hard on trust. The messaging doesn’t align. Whether or not your audience really puts the time into unraveling that they know they know that there’s something off and that hurts their trust. What would How would you message it instead? Um, I would mess. It’s typically about like, uh, on event. I was humorously like, Wow, we really bumbled that one. We scheduled this during this other events. Too bad we’re not that popular, you know. But since that we need you guys to show up in this capacity instead. Okay? And you feel like this is something, by the way, we just have about two minutes left. You feel like this is a way, a way to move forward in 2019 and ahead. You see this as an important future trend or current trend and just increasing Absolutely Whether or not, um, the Internet and having you know, all of the station of ages in the pub wolber hand has forced us to be transparent as a non-profit. You are complete both. So you might as well work with that to build a station ship run with it. There are great organizations like charity. My gosh, I’m so gaga over charity water. I’ve never seen such such bold. And I mean almost surreal transparency. And that’s that’s the standard that donors want and need to see any. Yeah. Um, yeah, there’s a video I remember seeing charity water scum. Scott Harrison. The CEO is standing in front of a well that failed in. They do their work in Africa. I don’t remember what countries in but the well collapsed and he said, We’ll be back. We’ll be back And I’m sure I’m sure he sure they did go back. Um Okay. Whitney River. We’re gonna leave it there. Thank you very much. My pleasure. Thank you. You’re welcome. It’s a founder and chief development strategist at what’s the word? What’s the word? Inc dot com and at what’s the word Inc. Next week you heard all about it. It’s the 4 50 If if you don’t. If you don’t remember what next week’s show was about, you need to tune out. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com actually already turned out. If you don’t, if you don’t know what the 4 50 it is, you’re already out. Responsive by Wagner, c. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Witnessed gps dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali fundez. They’re complete accounting solution made for tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producers Claire Meyer off. She’ll be in the studio next week. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer is screwed up today. Social shows, Social media is by Susan Chavez. She’s safe. She’s out in California. No guilt there. Mark Silverman is our Web guy. He’s fine. And this music is by Scott Stein, who will also be in the studio next week. You’re with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% complete. Turn the air conditioning on. It’s sweltering in here. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Beyond potential. Live Life, Your Way on talk radio dot N Y C on the aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and the small budget, you have a home at Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Friday’s 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant and on my show, the conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen live at our new time on Thursdays at 12 noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant. Our Weakening Humanity. Thursday’s 12 noon on talk radio dot You’re listening to Talking Alternative Network at www dot talking alternative dot com now broadcasting 24 hours a day. Do you love or are you intrigued about New York City and its neighborhoods? I’m Jeff Goodman, host of Rediscovering New York Weekly showed that showcases New York’s history, and it’s extraordinary neighborhoods. Every Tuesday live at 7 p.m. We focus on a particular neighborhood and explore its history. It’s vibe, it’s feel and its energy tune and live every Tuesday at 7 p.m. On talk radio dahna, you’re listening to the Talking Alternative network

391: Authentic Selves In Work & Board Change Agents – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

tony_martignetti_300x300-itunes_image2Tony’s guests this week:

Raj Aggarwal, president, Provoc; Sabelo Narasimhan, North American digital campaign manager at 350.org; and Glamarys Acevedo, professional development specialist for Mamatoto Village. 

Also, Greg Cohen, associate director for Cause Effective.

There’s more at tonymartignetti.com

291: Online Auctions & It Takes More Than a Hashtag – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

tony_martignetti_300x300-itunes_image2Tony’s guests this week:

Jon Kazarian, co-founder & CEO of AccelEvents.

Also, Marty Kearns, founder & president of Net Centric Campaigns & Jackie Mahendra, founding director of Open US Network.

There’s more at tonymartignetti.com

055: Explaining Earned Income & Leading the Leaders: Motivate Your Board to Fundraise – Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Tony’s guests this week:

Gene Takagi and Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group
Andy Robinson, consultant, and Kerry Kruckel, vice president for development and communications at WNET TV

Read and watch more on Tony’s blog: http://mpgadv.com

View Full Transcript
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Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio. We’re always talking about big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. I hope you were with me last week for got women donors from the fund-raising day conference in new york city last june, we talked about successful initiatives to expand your female donor base through targeted and appropriate cultivation, solicitation and stewardship. My guests were michelle walsh from the us fund for unicef and travis fraser from united way of new york city. Then it was linked in for prospect research. Our new regular contributor, maria simple, the prospect finder, was with me to share strategies for using linked in to find people and organizations who could be your board members, volunteers and donors. This week we are explaining earned income. Our legal contributors jean takagi and emily chan breakdown. What earned income is why it can be good. Why it can be bad. Why you need to understand it to protect your non-profit and keep it out of trouble. Then it will be leading the leader’s. Motivate your board to fundraise pre recorded at that fund-raising day conference in june consultant andy robinson and carry kruckel, vice president for development and communications at w any tv public tv in new york city reveal how to move your board to be the best fundraisers they khun b on tony’s, take two from my blog’s, say what’s on your mind. I learned a lesson about better communication from somebody who sat next to me on an airplane this past weekend, and that is tony’s. Take two at roughly thirty two minutes after the hour we’re live, tweeting today, use the hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation on twitter. We take a break, and when we return, i’ll be joined by jean takagi and emily chan to explain earned income. Stay with me. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Bilich hey, are you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com lively conversation top trends, sound advice, that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio and i’m samantha cohen from the american civil liberties union. Welcome back to the show and thank you, samantha cohen. Jean takagi is principal of ennio neo non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the popular non-profit law blawg, which you’ll find at non-profit law blogged dot com. Emily chan is an attorney at neo-sage principal contributor to the non-profit law blawg. They’re both joining me to talk about earned income. Jean emily, welcome to the show. Thank you, tony. Pleasure to have you back. Jean earned income. It can be good. It can be bad. What are we talking about? Well, when we’re talking about her dinkum, we’re talking about income that said, made by non-profits that’s not true. Donations through grants through charging fees, usually for services. Good. Jean, let me let me interrupt you for a moment. Could you talk a little louder? Jane is better. Yeah, that is better if you can keep up that. Thanks. Great. So earned income is about making income from services or goods or other assets that the non-profit may have to sell. And it’s not just asking for donations or grant on it’s. A way to diversify a non-profits revenue sources. Which is a good thing. Especially in times when other revenue sources from donations and grants maybe somewhat precarious because of the economy ah, and it helped to create a self sustaining program of the non-profit another really good thing in a way for non-profits toe leverage, goodwill and other ass. Yep. Okay, so this is income aside from your fund-raising a cz you said sale of goods or services there, there there there’s a lot of earned income out there, isn’t there? Jane? Absolutely. I believe emily sighted in in a recent block post that about seventy percent of the income reported by non-profits is actually derived from earned income sources and not fund-raising okay, so the majority of the of the income all right, and emily this khun b, that could be a downsides and non-profits too, right? Yes, there are to mean reasons why non-profits should be aware of this concept of unrelated business income because first thurs attacks that the irs imposes on income coming from unrelated business activities and second for public charities there’s a requirement that the organization be operated primarily for exempt purposes. So if there is too much unrelated business activity happening, that can actually jeopardize the status. Of the organization. Okay. Jargon jail have to getyou for unrelated business income. Unrelated to what? Let’s, break this down. Yes, on that really? The key concept here. So within earned income there could be activities that are considered related to the exam purposes for which the organization was formed. And then there can also be activities that are considered unrelated to be exact purpose of the organization. Three irs defines this three part of a trader business that’s regularly carried on that’s not substantially related to furthering the except purpose. So really, it gives the definition for unrelated business and that’s kind of how we see which activities are considered related or whether they’re considered unrelated. Okay, so i think the key phrase there is substantially related. Gene what? How does the organization decide whether it’s earned income is or is not substantially related to its a charitable mission? It’s definitely a fact specific inquiry, tony. The general idea is that related business advances the organization’s charitable mission without considering where the profits go. It’s the activities himself that contribute, importantly toe advancing the mission. So even if there was no money generated from that activity, the charity would think that running that business is a good idea because it helps again further, the mission furthers, uh, the interests of the charitable class of individuals trying trying to help no unrelated business is one where the activities really have nothing to do with advancing the mission, but they’re carried out to generate revenues that will be used later to advance the mission and it’s that’s unrelated business that could be subject to the unrelated business income tax and that can get a charity in trouble if it’s engaged in a substantial amount of of that type of unrelated business activity. Okay? And you you draw and a n’importe distinction. I think, between the activity that creates this earned income and the place to where that money goes once it comes into the organization, we’re interested in the former, right? Exactly. So for this analysis, we don’t get her where the money goes. We’re just looking at the activities himself, okay? Yeah, go ahead. Sometimes very difficult to tell. Tony, for example, does selling clothes or other retail items really further a charitable mission. And, you know, on one side, you might say, well, it looks like a department store. It looks like a boutique, but it can for their mission if, like, goodwill, the operation of the business provides education, job training and work experience for disadvantaged class of individuals so it can be very fact specific, and we’d look at all the facts and circumstances to determine whether it’s related or not. Okay, and we have just a minute before the break. So so the activity that we’re interested in is the activity that generates the revenue the income let’s call keep put consistent generates income, and you’re comparing that to the tax exempt purpose, which would be the charitable mission. And that’s, how you’re determining whether the income is related or unrelated? Why am i explaining this? Right? That’s? Exactly. Right. Okay, cool. All right, so we’ll take a break, and when we come back, emily and jean will stay with us. We’ll talk a little bit more about how to determine where, where this related or versus unrelated income fits. And what happens if it turns out to be unrelated. Which sounds ominous. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio stay with us. E-giving attempting to getting thinking. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. Get him. Good. Duitz are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. 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For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Schnoll welcome back, we’re with jean takagi and emily chan explaining earned income. So, emily, maybe we could talk about a couple of other, maybe just fact situations where i guess the irs has determined or, you know, or some court has determined that that something was definitely related or unrelated income. Can you give another example, besides the one that gene had with the goodwill? Sure, another common example is with museums that generally have this charitable and educational purpose, but they also generate income through activities like a gift shop or having a cafe. So now we’re looking at the specific activities, and the irs doesn’t a kind of a broad stroke with activities it’s going to look at each activity and even within that activity kind of separate parts. So starting first with the gift shop, i’m emily, before you go further, can you can you speak a little louder? Force? Thank you better. Yeah, it is better, thank you within a museum, gift shop, museum, maybe selling items that i’m advanced charitable and educational purposes, for example, their reputations of the art that’s displayed on other items like that, but they also may be selling things like seven years to the city for which is located, which really is not going to be considered substantially related to charitable and educational purpose at the museum. In that case, the irs look att each item, maybe even and determine whether that’s related or unrelated, and so it can get quite nuanced if we done looked to the cafe. Now we’re talking about some of the activities where the irs also make exceptions. So some cafes in a museum may be considered related if they fall under the exception of being there for the convenience of the members and the patrons who come into the museum. But then, if we’re looking at a cafe that open to the public that list, they have the street entrance. Now it’s starting to look like a commercial cafe for-profit cafe, in which case we are arrest may come in and say, this is unrelated income, and now the museum has to be concerned about the two issues we raised earlier of pre-tax or possibly okay, that’s really interesting. So so within this category of earned income, some of it can be related and some of it unrelated, and then the non-profit has to. Account for those separately, like within the same cafe or the same museum store? Yes, on so this is. And another misconception that comes up is not an activity itself, such as running a cafe can actually generate both unrelated and relieving income. I’m so again, and she noted it’s just very fact specific and the na me but they’re not the museum when it reports it’s income in its annual information returned to the irs got toe actually list out every item that generates related versus unrelated business income so it would have to say, well, we we sold some t shirts and mugs of the city city souvenirs. This generated this much income that would be subject attacks. We thought this many art prints and books on art which would be related and not subject to that attack. Yes. Ok, so they do have to account separately for all these different categories of related versus unrelated. Wow. Okay, so is that so it’s fragmented? I mean, they’re the income is fragmented and that’s exactly what the irs calls that they call it the fragmentation rule. Okay. And let’s talk a little more. Jean about the consequence of of unrelated, it earned income. It’s, you and emily both mentioned the unrelated business income tax is that what gets applied to unrelated income? Exactly, and the whole idea be behind the unrelated business income tax was to address the problem of unfair competition with for-profit businesses on dh back in the fifties, when when the law was first created, there were a bunch of large non-profits like universities buying for-profit businesses and not paying taxes when running them within the non-profits can imagine that a small business it could be very upset if this big non-profit competitors came in, didn’t have to pay tax and had this huge competitive advantage over the small business owners, plus the additional advantage of not paying property tax, et cetera, the other the other advantages, aside from not paying tax on the income right, exactly, exactly right. And so you could see how they would be this unfair competition if non-profits weren’t tacked on this unrelated business income, and there is a one thousand dollar general thresholds first, one thousand dollars sort of escape, but beyond that, then it’s considered substantial enoughto require that the non-profit file a special information return or tax return. Reporting it’s, unrelated business income tax and the income tax is a tax on the normal corporate tax rate that a corporation would have to file a for-profit business would have to file, which is generally somewhere between fifteen and thirty five percent rate. Okay, and there’s an additional return to report this beyond the nine, ninety it’s not just a schedule in the nine, ninety that you that you ah, that you file correct it’s a separate return called the form nine, ninety and just like the nine, ninety, it has to be publicly disclosed. Okay, tea for taxable. Maybe. I don’t know. Okay? Or tea for tony, i think it’s the nine. Ninety tony for i prefer that. Okay, so who should be making this call mean, does this this is definitely require an attorney? If you have this earned income that you know, outside you’re fund-raising income, you’re getting money for goods and or services? Does this have to be an attorney making the call as to whether it’s related or unrelated her candid account into it? Or or who? Offgrid i think it’s a mixture of individuals that really can help make this decision. I’m in one respect there really is a business decision that has to be made by the organization and its leaders, even if the organization is generating related income. I mean there’s questions about whether there’s capacity the resource to support it and weather engaging in these activities might even lead to something like mission creep, where the organization starts to move further and further away from the reason it was organized. I’m certainly having the help of experts can be incredibly useful for an organization as kind of our discussion is highlighting there’s so many nuances to this rule, and unfortunately, the irs doesn’t give kind of a straightforward, bright line threshold to say where you’ve crossed that line and now have based on certain consequences, such as getting your tax exempt status provoked. So i certainly think there are many people who could be useful durney i’m with jean takagi principle of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. Emily chan is an attorney in that firm. So emily, you just mentioned possible revocation of your tax exempt status. What? We haven’t gone that far yet. What? What is that about? So public charities when they first formed one of the requirements under the internal revenue code is not this organisation be primarily operated for the exempt purpose? The issue with unrelated business income is now is there’s too much unrelated business activity? The irs is now saying you’re no longer being primarily operated for related purposes. Unfortunately, though the iris has not said definitively at what point can you say now? We were engaged in substantial on really business activity many people ask for, like percentages or income amounts, but unfortunately, the irs hasn’t spoken on that. Many practitioners fall on the twenty percent rule of thumb of, um, the amount of generated income coming in, but sometimes being office may reap are looking at the amount of resource is the organization is actually dedicating unrelated business activity as opposed to how much income is generating let’s stop for one moment. So on emily, i have to remind you speak a little bit louder, please. So twenty percent you’re saying some practitioners use a twenty percent. What are we taking? Twenty percent of if that’s your if that’s the test, you’re using twenty percent of gross income from unrelated businesses, okay? And and some practitioners think that is a threshold for for what, when you have to report it or or what it’s a good rule of thumb common amount that many practitioners fallen for when the organisation should be concerned now that they may be e-giving into too much unrelated business activity in which consequences could be oh, i see. Ok, so there isn’t a bright line. There isn’t a bright line as to how much is too much. Some practitioners use twenty percent. I don’t there’s some practitioners who think as long as it’s not above forty nine percent that you’re okay, yes, but certainly arrange again because the irs hasn’t said exactly at what point they believe that the line is drawn and partially because the analysis is still back specific, it may just be difficult for the irs to say definitively across the board this is the one amount where every organization must follow-up right, i can jump in turn, please, you know the irs is really looking at all. The resource is being used by the non-profit that’s directed at the unrelated business. So if it’s, using ninety percent of its resource, is not to engage in charitable activities, but to engage in the unrelated business and the unrelated business is only generating ten percent of the total gross income. Well, that’s still probably too much unrelated business activity devoting ninety percent. You know of your resources towards it on dh. That could lead to revocation of exempt status even below that twenty percent rule of thumb. Because we’re really not just looking at the income, really looking out at how the organization is using its research. So on the sort of congress sight, if it was using only five percent of its resources and it was generating eighty percent of the growth income of the non-profit that may be okay really generated so much income is just so little resources are going towards that, and then the other ninety five percent are all going towards furthering its charitable purposes directly. So it’s it’s really more than just the percentages, but anything over twenty percent, i think emily cause that is a good rule of particularly for account that he may not be looking at the activity level, but looking at the numbers and saying, hey, you better talk to an attorney when you get to that level of income from unrelated business. Okay, interesting. So i just want to recap a little where we’re talking about earned income, which is different than your fund-raising income, but so it’s a part of your gross revenue apart from fund-raising income discerned income and then earned income could be either related or unrelated. And we’re talking about now the consequences of having too much of the income unrelated. And jean, you had said the threshold for reporting is a thousand dollars. Is that right? That’s? Right. Ok, so if you have over a thousand dollars of unrelated income that’s, when you have to file the nine ninety tony form nine ninety tony form that that’s, right? And i should add, actually sort of define what growth income means without trying to get into jargon jail here. Okay. Income for this purpose is means the gross receipts, less the cost of good souls. So, for example, if we had t shirts and we sold two thousand dollars worth of t shirts and the t shirts costs us twelve hundred dollars, how then are gross? Income is only eight hundred dollars, so we wouldn’t have to file the nine. Nineteen. Okay. Okay. Ah, are there? Are there exceptions to the so what’s could be unrelated business income, gene? Yeah, they’re they’re exceptions to the whole area, unrelated business income tax and whether it would apply and the common exceptions that that we talk about are the three basic ones. When is the volunteer exception? So if the unrelated business is carried on by all volunteers, that will be an exception, and those activities will not generate income that’s subject to that unrelated business income tax. The other one emily mentioned is when activities unrelated business activities are carried on for the convenience of members or patients or students, and that might be like a hospital, gift store or bookstore in in a and the university or the example that emily brought up a cafe inside a museum that serving just the museum patrons. That’s called the convenience exception and is another exception where you don’t get charged with that unrelated business income tax. And the third exception that’s often cited is the donated good exceptions and that’s when you run an unrelated business like a thrift store. But all of the goods inside the thrift store were donated so similar to again the goodwill model. In some cases and and other thrift stores that are run by non-profits it’s a business and it’s unrelated but it’s all donated goods so they don’t have to pay the unrelated business income tax there’s one more modification we call separate from these three basic exceptions that everybody should know about and that’s the passive income modifications. So if you’re generating a lot of income from interest and dividends and red ilsen royalties but it’s passive, you’re not doing any activities, teo, get that that income it was just based on investments that will not be subject to the unrelated business income kapin but it gets so complicated that they’re exceptions on exceptions and exceptions, those exceptions? Yeah, no kidding, especially. I’m sure about the passive income when you start getting two rents and especially ranson and there’s prints on commercial property. Okay, let’s, not go that far. But i am interested in the volunteers that first exception volunteers doing all the work. So? So if you had any employees like in a thrift shop supervising volunteers, then then you wouldn’t qualify for that exception. Is that right, jean? It would be we would look at it from a substantiality points. So it’s substantially, all of the workers were volunteers. Then we’ll get that exception. You may still have a back person sort of supervising all the volunteers, and that could still work out. Ok, ok. And emily, the donated goods that does that exception have to be one hundred percent? Or is that also? Ah, substantiality test there for that exception, we’re looking again at it reality. So with many thrift shops, we see this happening. But certainly, if there’s a combination of exceptions to the unrelated business income roll and then there’s one or i think school that are considered unrelated. Then again, the fragmentation role, as we talked about earlier is going to be triggered on the organization is going to need thio mark each category. Make sure it accounts for that. Okay? Fragmentation, substantiality unrelated business income in the nine ninety tony form jean is there anything we want to wrap up with? We have just a minute left. Anything we haven’t said about earned income that you think small and midsize non-profits should know well, apart from the whole related and unrelated part, that big driving force behind designing to engage and earned income ventures is deciding whether you really got the capacity to do it, and it makes sense it’s compatible with your mission. You’ve got the right assets that are worth selling probably want to pick the low hanging fruit first do stuff that you’re already good at because you don’t want to surprise your staff with managing a totally unknown entity and unknown venture on distracting them from from doing the mission and want to get involved too. As he plan about that, you need to know the laws and risks involved. Whether you’re selling goods, maybe sales tax are involved, you may have new employment issues and intellectual property issues, social media issues, licenses, permits, insurance and all of those things. So getting some experts to help you making sure you have the capacity to do it ahead of time. Those those are my best tips for you jean takagi and emily chan gene is a principle of neo the non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the non-profit non-profit law blogged at non-profit law blogged dot com emily chan is an attorney at neo-sage principal contributor to that blogged emily gene, thank you very much for being on, we look forward to hearing talking to you again next month. We look forward to it as well, tony. Thank you, real pleasure. Thank you. We take a break, and after the break, tony’s take two and then leading the leader’s motivate your board to fundraise, so stay with me. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics politically expressed. I am montgomery taylor, and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office needs better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills. Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. Website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications, that’s the answer. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. I’m leslie goldman with the us fund for unicef, and i’m casey rodder with us fun for unison. You’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. My block this week is, say, what’s on your mind and that’s the topic of tony’s take two on an airplane just this past weekend from chicago to new york. I was with a girl who was just very forward about saying things that that a lot of us would filter. So there was there was she’s, twenty four years old, elisa, and it was clearly, you know, some disorder that just made her say what was on her mind just as i entered the just entering the row to sit down, she asked me what’s your name, how old are you? Are you married? So, you know, that’s got me thinking, you know, she was very charming and sweet and at the same time, you know, unashamed, um and it just got me thinking, you know, they’re there we censor ourselves a lot, and we suppress things that maybe sometimes appropriately suppressed i mean, we can’t all be saying all the things we’re thinking with we’d all be without jobs without friends, but some things i think way sensor maybe should be said and and ah, not avoided just because they might be very sweet or, you know, unmanly. If you’re a guy or maybe because they might be, um, you know, a sign of weakness, so i just raised my consciousness about censoring myself and saying more things that i’m thinking and letting people be more aware of what my thoughts are in the right circumstances. And so i thought that might be a benefit to you because so much of our work is relationships in our inn. Non-profits so that’s say what’s on your mind, it’s on my block, which is that m p g a d v dot com and that is tony’s take two for friday, august nineteenth. We’re now going to move to leading the leader’s motivate your board to fundraise. This was pre recorded at fund-raising day in new york city this past june, and here is that interview. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of fund-raising day two thousand eleven were in new york city times square at the marriott marquis, and i’m joined now by andy robinson and carry kruckel andy is principal of andy robinson consulting. Carrie kruckel is vice president for development and communications. Wnt channel thirteen here in new york city. Welcome both of you. Thank you. It’s pleasure beings for having us. Our pleasure. Your seminar topic is leading the leaders how to motivate your board to cultivate major gift. I’ll tell you, we’ve done about half a dozen interviews today, and the board has probably come up in four or so of those of those six so far, but now critical the board’s role in fund-raising and how do you want to start the start? The topic? What? What? What is their responsibility? Well, where i would start this topic is i’d say we have to define fund-raising so it’s not just asking for money. It is the whole cycle of behavior. It’s identifying prospects, it’s cultivating it’s asking it’s, thanking it’s, recognizing its involving and so all that stuff. And if we define fund-raising is asking for money. There are a certain number of people, including a certain number of board members who will never get there. Okay. On the other hand, if we define fund-raising as this larger piece of work that we all have to do, then i would argue pretty strenuously they that there’s a place for everybody in that cycle, even the board members who hate to ask for money. There’s just the old fund-raising or something they can do? Absolutely there friendraising there. Friendraising yeah, we call it friendraising fund-raising atar side, which is the same thing. And it’s absolutely critical because actually, my feeling is that you don’t want every boardmember asking for money. Let’s, let’s try to go through a little life cycle of a boardmember how do we make sure we recruit board members who want to participate in this in his willingly? So, andy out recognizing that there may always be some that will will object strenuously and never maybe we’ll get to the difficult cases, maybe, but in the light in the opening lifecycle, how do we how do we recruit correctly? Andy? Well, the first thing is transparency mean, let people know when they’re joining your board that this is one of the expectations and i’m a believer and job descriptions, i think you specify what expected. Boardmember and i think the job description has to be reciprocal, meaning we’re gonna expect you to raise money on one side on the other side, we’re going to train you how to do it, we’re going to support you or give you some options and how you participate. Oh, so there actually is organization responsibility. It’s reciprocal? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, where a lot of lorts fail and be interested to hear your take on this carry. A lot of boards fail is they bring people on and they say, go raise money and they kick him in the butt and they supposed about the door do it there’s not training, but on the morning there’s not support. I mean, there’s, this sort of fantasy that they’re all they all come in as skilled and willing fundraisers. And that is rare. Carrie, how about you? For the recruiting side on the recruiting side were very strategic. And w n e t we have a committee that’s, just a people. So of my board of forty, only eight are formally asked by the chairman to be active solicitors for deb unity. And they partner with me. I trained them on. We have a whole business plan that they stick, teo, that we establish the beginning of the year. Now, just as important to that group a zach repairs to the organization is all trustees do. We asked him to give when they joined the board, we have a give and get yes expectation it’s very clear it’s not give or get you have to give not all of our trustees khun give it the same level, but they all have the ability to additionally get one of the criteria for recruiting a boardmember sir, is what is the network that they’re in what’s their orbit in sphere of influence and that’s we played too. We played to that strength rather than to a place that they may not be familiar. So that’s really key. So everybody comes in with a certain capacity said, but only a handful of people work with me on act, actually soliciting gifts, large gifts, the rest friendraising yeah, just once just one fifth of your board, but the andes to the point that andy made there is a role for everybody, so rule for only one fifth of your board is actively soliciting, right? But i would say another two to three fifths of our board are actively friendraising calling me all the time with great leads, contacts, ideas, and then the development committee is a very tight, working operation that, you know, we activate when we’re ready yeah, god, those eight people self selected or you hand picking the ones you want to turn into solicitor’s i’m in the process of handpicking because i just joined the organisation fifteen months ago, so i inherited a wonderful development committee, but some on that committee still are not comfortable soliciting. They’re more comfortable, say, leading a major gala that raises three million for the organization so that’s that’s significant in a different way, but know, as i handpick in this new new year, we have two new co chairs and they they go about fund-raising from a different very different points of view. One is a seven figure donor and annual basis, and one is a six figure donor, and so we tackle it different ways. One is very entrepreneurial and, you know, a tremendous seller, great talker, the other one is very focused wants to close five gifts at a million or more. So you create this this dynamic of what’s a business plan for each of them that kind of gets the whole committee where they want, and that also suggests the support that the organization has to provide in terms of a business plan, you’re talking about a business. Plan for each of them that’s i’m sure developed in collaboration with them, but your staffing that plan on dh you’re proposing the plan to them, right? Staffing that committee is probably fifty to sixty percent of my work. It’s a big part of my job and you say an interesting word, it’s, a business fund-raising is totally a business, and until trustees see how that business is an operation, they don’t really trust the process. I kind of think they might be asked out there on a whim, asking for money, but there are three major categories of running a very solid development shop, whether your staff of three or staff of seventy like we are, but you have to have those principles in place and regularly talk about them so that the trustees feel like there was a very strong foundation that’s pushing this for them and supporting them and support them now. And he talked earlier about proper training of a new boardmember what? What is training look like wnt for a new boardmember around fund-raising around fund-raising? Yeah, um, it’s pretty informal. I mean, we have formal orientation for all of our board members when they join and then every year all the board members get a mini kind of refresher, but when it comes to fund-raising, we sit down and we establish our goals and objectives together, i usually come in with a set of recommendations that i review with the chair and the co chair, but i really trained them as they get ready and go out. I equip them with basically the case for support, so anytime they’re out socially or if they’re setting that i’ve set them up for they know the elevator pitch, but until they’re actually going out on a call, i don’t train them until they’re going on a call. So that’s basically a really sell that briefing, and then you know, half an hour on the phone or sit down where we kind of go through that solicitation. Every solicitation is different, all right? But i don’t formally trained them. I don’t bring in outside consultants to train them. I’ve been doing this for twenty two years. Why generally, you know i might this year will be my first let’s see will be my second year kicking off the committee for the fall can i probably will have three new committee members, so i’ll probably take forty five minutes to kind of go through the rules of the game and how they’re set up tio have a great experience and a win win for the organisation, right? And then i’ll do one on one training and what kind of feedback do you like to see from a boardmember after they’ve been in the kind of meeting that carries talking about preparing them for afterwards, how do they feed back what they’ve learned in that meeting to the organization? Yeah, it’s a good question. First of all, the classic way we do this, i don’t know if this is true it w n e t the classic way we do this, we go out hairs, it’s a boardmember with a staff member and sometimes boardmember zehr skilled enough to go out alone and do asks and that’s fabulous, but i think that’s the exception rather than the rule. So usually what this looks like is thie carries of the world are sitting down with the boardmember after the meeting’s over, and sometimes you’re doing this in the car, you know, when you’re sitting in somebody’s driveway and what did? We learn how excited is this person? Are there other next steps that we need to take who’s goingto leave who’s going to take that next step? Who’s going to lead on that? How do we follow up with that person? It’s not a bad idea to produce some sort of scratchy where you actually have a standard set of questions you’re asking each other to debrief the meeting. So you actually have something you can then put in the database and use that to manage the relationship? What do you like to see andy in terms of the other relationship? Sorry, the other board dishpan ce abilities, aside from soliciting let’s say we have boardmember is that our? We’ve agreed, mutually, either i don’t solicit or you’re not comfortable listening, and we understand it. What are the other roles? Well, this could be an entire phone call baizman entire interview unto itself, but just off the top of my head, one is identifying prospects, even if they’re not willing to approach those people individually. Another one is creating opportunities to educate people, so if you’re at a radio station, you could bring him in and give mature if you’re a land trust you could take him out on a hike. If you’re working with children, you could bring them in to see the kids doing what they’re doing. It’s a cultivation piece on the back end? I’m a great believer in boardmember is picking up the phone and thanking donors, even people they don’t know and saying, hi, my name is andy robinson, i’m a volunteer boardmember with name of organization, i am not calling this evening to ask you for money, pause, you know, they collapsed on the other end of the phone, right? I’m just calling to say thank you, and these phone calls are revelatory because a lot of board members expect they’re going to get grief and people. Wow, i love your organization is so great it’s a privilege to give and it’s a really good way to ease people into fund-raising without the ask part that’s just half a dozen things they could do what i liked about that that last ideas having boardmember calls that ghetto learned the exuberance that’s out there, even if they’re calling fifty dollar donors, you could have boardmember calling fifty or hundred dollar don’t love that, yeah, i would love that. And then they learned that. There’s, this, this is base of support. It doesn’t only exist among the six and seven figure donors, and the variation on this and i’ve done this several times is tohave. Donors come to a board meeting and do a little donorsearch. Because a lot of board members think donors air from mars don’t know when they’re different species. And actually, they’re just like everybody else. Except they love your organization more than most people know. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping hunters. People be better business people. Buy-in this is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. 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And i’m travis frazier from united way of new york city, and i’m michelle walls from the us fund for unicef. No. Durney carrie, how are how are you using boardmember sze who the ones that are not soliciting the other, the other four fifth what are some ways that they are directly involved in fund-raising they are every board member’s assigned to a committee wnt so we have seven committees, so they’re all engaged in some aspect of the mission of the non-profit my job, as i see it is the chief fundraiser is, too connect the fund-raising relevance to other parts of the opposition they may be working on, so if they’re working on programing, or if they’re working on investments or finance is what is the value of that work to the role we do and fund-raising so making the connections is really in part because a cz you pointed out they all have thinking about fund-raising they may not all be actively engaged, so the challenge is is how do you how are they experiencing the kind of the mission in a way that they’re feeling connected that keeps them kind of, in a sense, cultivated as prospects themselves and that’s a really big challenge? Because if you’re on the audit committee, that is not really a very inspiring everybody wanted wnt everybody want to be on the education committee because that’s where the programs that work with kids, mostly and that’s what they want to do because that’s exciting, but there are other fiduciary responsibilities, so it’s a challenge? So what we do is the ceo, the chairman, and i actually spent a lot of one on one time with our trustees, we take them out to lunch, we try to meet every trustee twice a year, just one on one intimately because board meetings, you really can’t connect on an intimate level. You really getting business done that’s a really valuable idea, i think connecting the leadership with the ceo with the with the boardmember include maintaining that relationship, you created friendship and trust there, but then we also i’m a big believer in events as a way to keep the trustees kind of socially connected. They don’t have to come to all the events, but they come to one or two a year in the months that you’re not doing boardmember ings w n e t we do a lot of screenings for new shows that we’re airing and that’s when we have trustees president, we give him a role, we ask himto welcome the guests, we ask him to go meet three or four people, so they always have a role in friendraising on the external side when they’re not doing the work of the board. I’m with carrie kruckel, vice president for development and communications, wnt thirteen and i see, um and anne robinson principle of anne robinson consulting their topic at fund-raising day two thousand eleven is leading the leaders how to motivate your board to cultivate major gifts, and this is tony martignetti non-profit coverage of fund-raising day two thousand eleven in new york city. Andy, what do you like to see in terms of the relations, the working relationship that carry started tow talk about between the ceo and the board around? Fund-raising well, i think the first thing is that there are ceos, executive directors who embraced fund-raising get it who are excited about it, and there are those who don’t and i have been development staff, it organizations where we had one and where we’ve had the other and this was was work is a whole lot easier if the ceo gets it and embraces it and understands it. So i’m going to start with the assumption you have one of those if you do the answer, the question, i think, is to have shared expectations that air clear about who’s going to do what and to find ways to engage people at the board level who will lead on this and the way i think about this and someone taught me this term is to have a successful fund-raising board, you need someone who is the spark plugs on the board when it comes to fund-raising because usually the way this works is staff are saying to the board, you need to raise money, you need raise money, we need help, and this is basically going to your supervisors and saying to them, you’re not doing your job well, which is tricky, she’s ill should that sparkplug be the chair of the development committee? Well, that works for me, but i’m less about the title, and i’m more about the personality, the attitude i mean, if you don’t like sparkplug, we can work with the word coach, we can work with the word cheerleader. I like the word enforcer, okay, but one spark plug, good to spark plugs. Better threespot plugs you have a really good fund-raising board, and if you can invest this person with a title like chair of the development committee that’s great, but i have seen it work really well when the chair of the development committee was more about the details and logistics, but they weren’t the one who did training and inspiring and enforcing. So i’m good either way, but somebody at a board level has to has to be that person, and the role of the ceo is to make sure you have that person to support them and doing that, make sure that they can do their job at a peer to peer level on the board. Okay, carry it sounded like you had something to say around around that relation that ceo board relationship, i would add that your board chair and your president, ceo and fundraiser have to compliment each other, so if you know what you have going into the mix and you don’t have the right balance of strengths, then you need to recruit very actively. Having a strong ceo who likes to solicit as well as the chairman can often be very problematic if they’re both looking for, you know, the chance to close on a gift and you have a donor who’s got two very aggressive people at the table that’s pretty tough, so i, like i’ve always looked to find a nice balance if the current ceo i work for is somebody who’s ah, wonderful articulator, but not necessarily was comfortable with making the ask or the clothes i’m looking for a chairman or a trustee to support him. Who has that complement the personality i generally find they’re just going backto. One point is, is that it’s really the rule the fundraiser to fill that gap? Knowing what your strength or as a professional fundraiser and playing those up, i probably can wear twenty different hats a w entity at any given time to support the trustee or their ceo or the chairman in an ask or a cultivation, because i’d have so much experience and see where the gap is in terms of how they’re going to relate to a potential donor. And i think that’s a number something non-profits can’t overlook is hiring the right fundraiser who has that kind of experience and working in a lot of different settings. On gonna frame this slightly differently. And i think this is complimentary. Really? Good development directors are good at getting other people to ask for money. Yeah, and, you know, doing it themselves? Absolutely. But the good ones are empowers. And trainers and supporters and that’s another way of what you just said. It’s a good point. Can i raise a second point, please? We’re talking, quote unquote. Major gifts and carry rolled out the six figure gift in the seven figure gift. And there are plenty people listening to this who will find those numbers to be frightening. Yeah, a thousand dollars is some organizations of thousand buckle is a major gift. The principles are the same. It’s. Not about the amount of money. It’s people who we consider major donor prospects, they get treated differently. They get more attention, we get more face time with, and we’re trying to find a way to engage their interests in a personal way. And that is really irrelevant about the amount of money we’re talking about. Okay. Excellent point. Thank you. And i agree. It’s. Very good. Carrie. What do you like to see around the the organization’s support of board? Members who are who are actively engaged in fund-raising what what kind of role is the organization playing toe to support those boards? Boardmember well, what i love to see that i don’t see much is an entire organization that understands the rule of the board and threw their department say their area of expertise, whether it’s, a on the mission delivery side or the education cider, the outreach side is that the leaders of those departments are justice. Capel is a fundraiser and communicating the progress of the mission of the non-profit to that board tends to fall into the lap of the fundraiser of the chief fund-raising almost every time you’re managing all aspects of the board, so but that’s, what i like to see, even an organization that doesn’t have it is a readiness and an understanding that we all are cultivating our board on the ceo or i’m the vice president, this department, i have a role in that, so i do spend time with my colleagues training, preparing them, helping them understand their role each year in terms of how they would interface with their committees that they’re managing, but i think that’s a really key part because it can’t just fall in the hands of the chief fundraiser at any size organization because it’s, very time consuming fund-raising really has to be out there also asking for gifts of other donors, not just working with the trustee’s. It was kind of building that pipeline, and so if you’re internally managing all components of the board, it’s very challenging, so i look for that but it’s really hard for non-profits to achieve that, you know, andy would have about thirty seconds left. What do you like to see you? So you have to be a little brief in terms of the organization supporting its member, its board members well, love, um, show appreciation, even if they don’t do absolutely everything you want them to do, reinforce anything that’s a positive behavior in this direction because these people are volunteers, they’re doing this on their own time with their own love, and we need to show appreciation even if they don’t do it perfectly if they do it pretty good. That’s a step forward, so i would honor that. Andy robinson is principal of andy robinson consulting carry kruckel is vice president for development and communications. W n e t thirteen there seminar topic is leading the leaders how to motivate your board to cultivate major gifts and this is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of fund-raising day two thousand eleven in new york city in times square. Carrie andy, thank you very much for being guests. It was a real pleasure. Thank you, thank you for having us. That was my pre recorded interview from this past june the fund-raising day new york conference next week. Google plus for your non-profit our tech contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news, scott koegler is with me to size up the newest big splash in social networking and also break down the silos, integrating communications, pr and fund-raising for better results from the fund-raising day conference in june, my guest will be meghan galbraith, managing director at changing our world for this week. I want to thank jean takagi and emily chan of the non-profit exempt organizations law firm and andy robinson and carry kruckel as well as the organizer’s of fund-raising day two thousand eleven for their hospitality from week to week, you can keep up with what’s coming up. Sign up for our insider. Email alerts on the facebook page. While you’re there like us and become a fan of the show, you know where facebook is. Just go to tony martignetti non-profit radio. When you’re in there, you can listen live or you can listen. Archive. The archive is at itunes. 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